Loss of salvation???

[Gideon300]

Amen! Well said. Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 3:7-10) Since studier teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS, obedience then becomes must or else (legalism) with no firm answer to how much obedience is enough.

Agree 100%. One thing destroys the religious argument of the legalist. In the Torah, circumcision was mandatory. Disobedience meant death, as Moses almost found out. Yet circumcision is absolutely not required for believers.

Galatians 5:2-4

"Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.…"​

 

[brightfame52]

The Eternal Redemption Christ Obtained! ​

Look at what Christ actually accomplished by His own blood:

“Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
—Hebrews 9:12

Notice the language:

Christ entered once.
Christ offered His own blood.
Christ obtained redemption.
And the redemption He obtained is eternal.

The word translated “obtained” is heuramenos, from heuriskō, carrying the idea of obtaining, acquiring, gaining, or securing.

Christ did not merely make redemption available.

He obtained eternal redemption.

And He obtained it “for us.”

That is the Legal Phase of salvation.

What does this redemption accomplish?​

Paul connects redemption directly with justification:

“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”
—Romans 3:24

Notice the connection:

Redemption → justification.

Justification is grounded in the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, if Christ actually obtained eternal redemption for those He represented, that redemption cannot be merely a potential benefit waiting for the sinner to activate it.

Christ obtained it.

And because the redemption is eternal, its saving efficacy is not temporary.

Redemption through His blood​

Paul says:

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.”
—Ephesians 1:7

Again:

Blood → redemption → forgiveness.

The blood of Christ is not merely an opening of possibilities.

It actually accomplishes the redemptive work.

This is why Hebrews 9:12 is so powerful:

“having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Not temporary redemption.

Not potential redemption.

Eternal redemption.

And this connects directly with Romans 5:10​

Paul says:

“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...”

Notice the condition of the people:

They were enemies.

Yet Paul says:

“we were reconciled.”

And notice the ground:

“by the death of his Son.”

That is completely consistent with Hebrews 9:12.

Christ obtains eternal redemption by His blood.
That redemption provides the legal ground of justification.
His death accomplishes reconciliation while His people are still enemies.
Then His risen life brings those reconciled people through the subsequent phases of salvation.

This is why faith cannot be the cause of the Legal Phase​

Faith is absolutely necessary in the Practical/Conversion Phase.

But faith does not make Christ's blood effective.

Faith does not obtain redemption.

Faith does not purchase justification.

Faith does not complete reconciliation.

Christ did those things.

The sinner believes because God brings him into the Vital Phase by regeneration.

Then he willingly exercises faith in the Practical Phase.

So the order is:

Eternal: God elects.

Legal: Christ obtains eternal redemption through His blood.

Vital: The Spirit gives spiritual life.

Practical: The regenerated sinner believes, repents, and comes to Christ.

Final: Christ brings His people to glorification.

And notice how secure this makes salvation.

If Christ obtained eternal redemption, then the redemption He obtained cannot ultimately fail.

The believer's security does not rest upon the strength of his grip upon Christ.

It rests upon the eternal redemption Christ obtained for him.

The sinner's faith is real.

His repentance is real.

His obedience is real.

His perseverance is real.

But those are the fruits and manifestations of the salvation Christ secured—not the things that make His redemption successful.

Christ obtained the redemption.
Christ paid the price.
Christ satisfied Divine Justice.
Christ secured forgiveness.
Christ accomplished reconciliation.

And therefore:

“having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Eternal redemption produces eternal security because the Redeemer Himself obtained it. 3

 

[Revelation1v8]

It's where the reduction to absurdity of Faith-Alone has to go if we keep pushing it.

It's why @FlyingDove and some others are arguing so strongly against what I'm saying about Faith-Obedience.

I saw long ago how this version of Faith-Alone has to go where he just took it. At least he did so openly. Others like to dance around it.

This version of F-A is destroyed by an accurate understanding of Faith that correctly sees it's acute connection with obedience. There is no salvation apart from faith-obedience and this includes at initial belief of the Gospel per Rom10.

What a mess.

Maybe the best way to phrase it is to say that salvation is by TRUE faith alone and fruits of the spirit are the result of obedience.

Let's use James 2:22-24 as an example:

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In my opinion, verse 24 is just a way of saying that the works are a way of us appearing justified in the eyes of men, but the Bible tells us that we are justified by God/Jesus through TRUE faith.

Now let's compare it to Jesus' Parable of Talents:

Matthew 25:15, 29

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

29 For unto every one that hath (faith) shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not (faith) shall be taken away even that which he hath.

* I threw the word (faith) in myself, but that's really what that verse means.

God/Jesus doesn't give individuals more talents than they can handle depending on what stage they are in with their walk with God. Verse 29 is really showing us that the more works we do, the more abundance (fruits) we will have and it shows that we are REWARDED for our fruits, but we're not condemned because we have faith.
Some of us know that when we backslide into disobedience, that fruits (rewards) and prayers go unanswered. But once we finally realize this, and start walking again in obedience, we will see the fruits, rewards, and answered prayers returning.

Those who do absolutely NOTHING, never had TRUE faith to begin with.

But let's not kid ourselves, there's going to be all kinds of people trying to do works as a means to earn their salvation. This is where our personal relationship with God/Jesus becomes so important. Because the Bible warns us that:

Romans 8:5-6

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


If we're walking in the flesh instead of the Spirit, our works mean nothing either.

Here's the hard and sometimes painful truth. If one thinks that rituals or sacraments is the way to God/Jesus and salvation, they are sorely mistaken too. Without the Spirit, we have nothing.

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Corinthians 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I have heard a variety of claims - for me, I was determined to trust the Word of God and accept that I received the gift of the Holy Spirit at water baptism whether their was tongues of fire or not. There was not (although it was after a Wednesday night service).

I think it's amusing how experiences are presented and argued for. "Oh I know what happened to me. Let me tell you what happened to me" Lol

That's the interesting thing. With some people, I believe the experience is real and legitimate.

HOWEVER, I've also had too many conversations with New Age believers who don't think they need to read their Bibles because they believe they are hearing the truth straight from the Lord's mouth in out-of-body experiences.

This is WHY we absolutely have to know our Bibles. If a New Age believer starts talking about experiences and words spoken by God/Jesus or angels that directly contradict the scriptures, they've been fooled by the best of them (Satan & his minions).

Unfortunately, I've seen it happen too many times.

 

[Genez]

Lamar, calling the plain declarations of the Holy Spirit “absurd philosophy” is not a refutation. You are dismissing the very texts that define what Christ's death accomplished.

I am not arguing that man has no responsibility. I am arguing that man's response does not make Christ's redemption effective. Rather, Christ's redemption secures the very saving responses God requires.

Let's let the texts speak.

1. Hebrews 10:14 says Christ perfected His people forever​

You say it is absurd to use this passage in arguing for eternal security.

But the Holy Spirit says:


Notice the basis:

“by one offering.”

And notice the duration:

“for ever.”

The surrounding context makes the point even stronger:





This is not a tentative sacrifice waiting to discover whether man will make it successful.

One offering.
Once for all.
Perfected forever.
No more offering for sin.

If Christ's one offering actually perfected a person forever, that person cannot finally perish.

2. Romans 5:10 gives the same Legal → Final sequence​

Paul says:


Look at what Paul actually says.

We were enemies.

We were reconciled.

The reconciliation was by the death of His Son.

Being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Paul distinguishes Christ's accomplished work in His death from the subsequent saving work accomplished through His life.

That fits the Five Phases:

Legal: Christ reconciles through His death.

Vital: the Spirit gives spiritual life.

Practical: the regenerated sinner believes, repents, and obeys.

Final: Christ brings His people to complete salvation.

The sinner's later faith does not travel backward and make the Cross effective.

3. And this is why “man must respond” does not answer the argument​

I have never denied that man must believe.

He must.

He must repent.

He must obey.

He must persevere.

But the question is:

Where do those responses ultimately come from?

Scripture does not leave them as independent contributions supplied by autonomous man.

Paul says:


Acts says:


And Paul says:


So yes:

The sinner believes.
The sinner repents.
The sinner obeys.
The sinner perseveres.

But God gives the faith.

God grants repentance.

God works in the sinner both “to will and to do.”

That means Christ's redemption does not merely purchase a possibility that man may or may not complete.

Christ's redemption secures the very obedience God requires.

Titus 2:14 says Christ:


Look at the purpose:

gave Himself → redeem → purify → zealous of good works.

The practical obedience of His people is among the saving blessings His self-giving was appointed to accomplish.

4. You are reducing the Cross to “opened access”​

You said the Cross successfully “opened up access for forgiveness.”

But Hebrews 9:12 says something much stronger:


Christ did not merely open access to redemption.

He obtained eternal redemption.

And Ephesians 1:7 explains that redemption:


So the biblical picture is not:

Christ died → forgiveness became possible → man supplies faith → redemption becomes effective.

It is:

Christ died → Christ obtained eternal redemption → forgiveness is secured → the Spirit gives life → God gives faith and repentance → the sinner believes and obeys.

Faith does not complete Christ.

Christ's redemption produces the response.

5. Your statement that the Cross merely gives “hope of salvation” changes the nature of redemption​

You said:


But the question is not whether the Gospel offers hope.

Of course it does.

The question is what Christ actually accomplished by His death.

The Bible says:






Those are accomplished realities—not merely possibilities.

6. So this is not about removing man's responsibility​

You keep portraying my position as though I believe man is a robot with no responsibility.

That's not my position.

The regenerated sinner willingly believes.

He willingly repents.

He willingly obeys.

He willingly perseveres.

But his willingness does not originate independently of God's grace.

God gives the life.
God gives the faith.
God gives repentance.
God works the will and the doing.
The sinner willingly responds.

That does not diminish human responsibility.

It magnifies divine grace.

The real question​

So let's stop changing the subject to “fate,” “libertarian free will,” or the non-elect.

The question is about Christ's Cross.

If Christ actually:

bore the sins of His people,
obtained eternal redemption for them,
reconciled them to God by His death,
and perfected them forever by His one offering,

then how can those same people finally perish?

And if your answer is that Christ merely made salvation possible and the decisive outcome depends upon man's independently supplied faith and perseverance, then you have changed accomplished redemption into potential redemption.

I am not taking responsibility away from man.

I am giving the efficacy of salvation entirely to Christ.

Christ's death accomplishes the Legal work.
The Spirit accomplishes the Vital work.
God gives faith and repentance.
The regenerated sinner believes, repents, and obeys.
Christ brings His people to final glory.

The sinner's obedience does not make Christ's redemption succeed. Christ's redemption secures the obedience of His people.
God gives the life. God gives the faith. God gives repentance. God works the will and the doing. God gives perseverance. The sinner willingly responds. Therefore, man's obedience is real, but it is the fruit of God's saving work—not the condition that makes Christ's redemption effective.

That is not “fate beyond control.”

That is sovereign grace and an accomplished redemption.

---

Two excellent points you made.
One I would like to repeat and amplify....

God gives the faith.

But how does He give us our faith?

​

So then faith comes by hearing, ​

and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17​

Faith is actually knowledge of the Word of God that one believes.

 

[brightfame52]

Two excellent points you made.
One I would like to repeat and amplify....

God gives the faith.

But how does He give us our faith?
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
Faith is actually knowledge of the Word of God that one believes.

Genez, I appreciate you highlighting Romans 10:17. You are absolutely correct that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. However, your definition that “faith is actually knowledge of the Word of God that one believes” stops short of the spiritual reality.

It reduces a supernatural fruit of the Spirit to a mere mental assent or cognitive exercise.
We must look at what Scripture says about how a person is made able to hear and believe that Word in the first place.

1. The Natural Man Cannot "Hear"
If faith comes by hearing, we have to ask: Does the natural carnal man have the capacity to hear and spiritually understand the Word of God?

Scripture answers with a definitive no in 1 Corinthians 2:14:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned


.”

If faith is "knowledge of the Word," the natural man is legally and vitally barred from it because he cannot know it. He is trapped in the prison of his natural spiritual deadness and total inability (Rom. 8:7-8).


2. Regeneration Precedes and Empowers Hearing


Before the Word can be heard and believed with saving faith, the Holy Spirit must perform a sovereign, unilateral work of quickening. This is the Vital Phase of salvation.

Look at what Jesus says in John 5:24:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Passing from death unto life introduces a person into the vital phase of salvation. This supernatural resurrection is what fundamentally empowers them for the Practical Phase of hearing and believing. You cannot hear the voice of the Son of God until you are first made alive by His power. As Jesus told the unbelieving Jews in John 8:47: “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

3. Faith is a Fruit of the Spirit, Not Human Intellect

Faith is not merely a human cognitive response to information. It is a spiritual blessing purchased at the cross and communicated by the Spirit. As Galatians 5:22 explicitly declares, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It is activated and maintained by the Spirit in the minds of those already redeemed by the blood of Christ.

The Bottom Line

So, how does God give us our faith through Romans 10:17?

He doesn't do it by merely presenting information to a dead sinner's intellect. He does it by sending the Holy Spirit to sovereignly regenerate the elect sinner, opening their blind eyes and unstopping their deaf ears. The gospel call does not create spiritual life; it brings that existing, sovereignly created spiritual life into action!

Faith is the evidence of a new nature created by God (Eph. 2:10)—it is the instrument of perception given to the quickened soul to embrace the righteousness that Christ already legally secured for them at the cross.

---

 

[Genez]

Genez, I appreciate you highlighting Romans 10:17. You are absolutely correct that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. However, your definition that “faith is actually knowledge of the Word of God that one believes” stops short of the spiritual reality.

It reduces a supernatural fruit of the Spirit to a mere mental assent or cognitive exercise.
We must look at what Scripture says about how a person is made able to hear and believe that Word in the first place.

1. The Natural Man Cannot "Hear"
If faith comes by hearing, we have to ask: Does the natural carnal man have the capacity to hear and spiritually understand the Word of God?

Scripture answers with a definitive no in 1 Corinthians 2:14:


If faith is "knowledge of the Word," the natural man is legally and vitally barred from it because he cannot know it. He is trapped in the prison of his natural spiritual deadness and total inability (Rom. 8:7-8).


2. Regeneration Precedes and Empowers Hearing


Before the Word can be heard and believed with saving faith, the Holy Spirit must perform a sovereign, unilateral work of quickening. This is the Vital Phase of salvation.

Look at what Jesus says in John 5:24:


Passing from death unto life introduces a person into the vital phase of salvation. This supernatural resurrection is what fundamentally empowers them for the Practical Phase of hearing and believing. You cannot hear the voice of the Son of God until you are first made alive by His power. As Jesus told the unbelieving Jews in John 8:47: “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

3. Faith is a Fruit of the Spirit, Not Human Intellect

Faith is not merely a human cognitive response to information. It is a spiritual blessing purchased at the cross and communicated by the Spirit. As Galatians 5:22 explicitly declares, faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It is activated and maintained by the Spirit in the minds of those already redeemed by the blood of Christ.

The Bottom Line

So, how does God give us our faith through Romans 10:17?

He doesn't do it by merely presenting information to a dead sinner's intellect. He does it by sending the Holy Spirit to sovereignly regenerate the elect sinner, opening their blind eyes and unstopping their deaf ears. The gospel call does not create spiritual life; it brings that existing, sovereignly created spiritual life into action!

Faith is the evidence of a new nature created by God (Eph. 2:10)—it is the instrument of perception given to the quickened soul to embrace the righteousness that Christ already legally secured for them at the cross.

---

OK.....

 

[Lamar]

There is nothing absurd about salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone,

What is absurd is pushing a theology that has no scripture that supports its most central theme, "alone".
An absurd theology that is forced to shoe horn its dominant focus "alone" into every verse used to defend it.
There are over 31,000 verses in the Bible yet pushers of Faith Alone Regeneration Theology cannot find even one verse that simply states their core belief without the need to modify the verse.

You conflate faith and obedience which culminates in salvation by faith AND WORKS.

What you are conflating is obedience and works of merit.

Faith alone comes in versions?

Most certainly. Different groups have different understandings.

How much faith? (To what degree)
Faith in what? (Which aspects of Jesus are needed)
How long? (Unto death or a sincere moment)

Connection, yes. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which follows is the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. That is how they are connected. There is no salvation apart from faith and there is no obedience apart from faith. We are saved by faith apart from the merit of works yet genuine faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. Root/fruit.

Faith Alone Regeneration Theology is at its core a root/faith alone concept, you don't seem to grasp this.

There is no need for fruit in this theology because the root/faith stands alone as the means of salvation. You seem to be blind to your own theology.

Conflating faith and obedience which makes no distinction between faith and obedience and culminates in salvation by faith AND WORKS is a mess.

Obeying God's directions is no more a work of merit than gazing upon the bronze serpent.

Again, you are conflating following God's directions with performing acts worthy of salvation.

 

[Genez]

This is addressed to the 'anti-works' crowd.

Works was a religious, manmade system.

In Jesus' day? Legalistic, highly religious men would prescribe for people a list of works that must be done to win the approval of God onto salvation. That is what the term "works" meant.

Some would say the likes of.... "The works of Rabbi Shmiztle are A B C D etc. "
The Pharisees were notorious for demanding all sorts of works.

So when Jesus entered the scene?
The people who were conditioned to this way of thinking began to wonder and ask what works he would prescribe for them.


Here is what Jesus endorsed.

Only one work.
Not, a system of works.

​

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

John 6:28-29

Believing is the one acceptable work God accepts.
And, if you think about it?
Believing is something one simply finds oneself doing.

It is not done to try to gain the approval of God.
It is done when one approves of God.

Come on!
Stop with the rigid legalism that some here want to lock us up into.
They love to manipulate others.