Man imputed Jesus with sin on the cross, not God.

[PaulThomson]

No.. He is just denying the gospel and the fact that Jesus bore our sins, meaning they were imputed onto Christ. He bore our punishment.

You can follow the op from now until the stars don't shine but both you and he and anyone who agrees with you are wrong and nothing will ever change that fact.

YOU are the one impugning God's character by disagreeing with His plan of salvation.

Our punishment is to be abandoned by God to the forces of chaos that we have chosen above God, so that those forces are unleashed to wound, bruise and crush us according to their will. There was no need for God to impute our sins to Jesus and to personally inflict pain on Him, in order to abandon Him to the forces of chaos.

"My God, My God , why have you abandoned Me."

 

[PaulThomson]

You are confused. I am not here to read your travesty of understanding. I post what is the correct understanding so that people
who may not know the truth, can read it, look it up and know what the Bible actually states.

This says that you do not try to understand whatever people post that misaligns with your own opinions re scripture, but merely react to the fact that they disagree by posting your own opinions on what the scriptures mean. There is no reasoned engagement with the reasoning presented to you. There is only knee-jerk reacting.

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes, He was bruised, wounded and chastised... by men... not by God.

But the Romans and Jewish leaders didn't bruise and chastise Him for our transgressions. The Jewish leaders accused Him (falsely) of blasphemy, and persuaded the Roman governor Pontius Pilate to pass the death sentence on Him. As far as they were concerned, they were punishing Him for blasphemy, not for the transgressions of all Christians.

 

[Yissachar]

Romans 7:1

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

YHWH Divorced Israel for playing the harlot.

It is an abomination to re-marry a wife that was divorced.

Unless the Husband dies, Then this Law is no longer is in effect. And the wife (Israel) is free to re-marry Him that was raised from the dead

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jeremiah 3:14

YESHUA died, layed down His Life For Israel, that He could be married her without breaking His own Law regarding marriage and divorce.

JESUS said that He was laying down His Life for Two Folds in order to make them one fold with one Shepherd, and that was the reason the Father loved Him

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd.

17 Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.

YESHUA came unto His Own, The House of Judah, He is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah

The Other Sheep are The House of Joseph, The Tribes of Israel

Ezekiel 37:19

Say unto them, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.

Ezekiel 37:22
And I will make them One Nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and One King shall be King to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Born Again Believers Surname themselves Israel and Jacob. John 3:5 Isaiah 44:3 Isaiah 44:5

They're no longer gentiles that have no hope and are without God and His Promises but have become citizens of Israel Ephesians 2:11 Ephesians 2:12 Citizens in the Household of God Ephesians 2:19 - He shall reign over the house of Jacob Forever Luke 1:33

The Seed of Abraham Galatians 3:29 God's Friend Isaiah 41:8

Jeremiah 50:4
In those days, and in that time, saith YHWH, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek YHWH their God.

Jeremiah 50:5
They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to YHWH in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.

Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

There are twelve gates by which to enter into the New Jerusalem and each one of them is named after a tribe of Israel - Blessed Revelation 22:14

To the Twelve Tribes James 1:1

to the strangers without hope 1 Peter 1:1

Out of the twelve tribes, How many are Judah? One Tribe of the Twelve tribes of Israel are Jewish-Judah

There are approximately 300 Jewish Messianic Congregations in Israel, Jews that Believe in YESHUA as their Messiah
One-third of Judah will be brought through the fire, be delivered during the time of Jacob's Trouble Zechariah 13:8 Zechariah 13:9

 

[pinebeach]

\

There is no one who, to be saved, is required to believe that Jesus was punished for our sins in our place. We are required to put our faith in Him to be saved, and that He died on account of our sins, and was raised back to life again, and that He is Lord. Yes, he bore our punishment, in that He bore the punishment we unjustly inflicted upon Him.

You actually think you had the power to inflict punishment on the Son of God? Jesus actually gave up His life for one thing....read the account again.

So, scripture does not say "our sins were imputed to Christ."
It says things that you interpret as meaning the same thing as "our sins were imputed to Christ."

Right. So millions of people since Christ died and rose again have got it wrong. Really?

Our punishment is to be abandoned by God to the forces of chaos that we have chosen above God, so that those forces are unleashed to wound, bruise and crush us according to their will. There was no need for God to impute our sins to Jesus and to personally inflict pain on Him, in order to abandon Him to the forces of chaos.

"My God, My God , why have you abandoned Me."

So the Bible is wrong then. Millions of believers through the ages are wrong. You have abandoned the truth is what is really going on.

This says that you do not try to understand whatever people post that misaligns with your own opinions re scripture, but merely react to the fact that they disagree by posting your own opinions on what the scriptures mean. There is no reasoned engagement with the reasoning presented to you. There is only knee-jerk reacting.

Don't project what you do onto other people.

 

[pinebeach]

Where in scripture do you find the statement that our sins were imputed to Jesus?

Why do you continue to ask a question that has been answered many times. I'm not actually asking, I am pointing out how you will never agree with the scripture that confirms that our sins were imputed by God to Jesus.

You are either very hard of understanding, or worse, you have chosen to disregard what millions through the ages concede to be the truth.

I am not responding to you anymore. No one who can actually read the Bible agrees with you anyway and that would include even
those who are not believers, but possess the ability to understand English which it seems, you may not.

Again, the ignore button was created for such as deny scripture. That would be you and your bestie, the author of this and other misleading ops.

 

[PaulThomson]

Right. So millions of people since Christ died and rose again have got it wrong. Really?

How many theories are their on ho wChrist's atonement works?

AI response:
"There isn’t one fixed number. In Christianity, people usually talk about 5 to 7 major theories/models of atonement, depending on how they group them.

Commonly listed ones are:

• Ransom theory
• Christus Victor
• Moral influence theory
• Moral example theory
• Satisfaction theory
• Penal substitution
• Governmental theory

Some books combine a few of these, so the count can be smaller or larger."

As you can see, Penal Substitution is only one of several possible theories on how the atonement works. Anyone who holds exclusively to one or more of those theories to the exclusion of the rest would be calling adherents to the others down through Christian history "wrong". You yourself are saying that the millions of Christians throughout history who did not adhere to Penal Substitution got it wrong. So, does that make you a bad person and a heretic in your own eyes?

 

[PaulThomson]

You actually think you had the power to inflict punishment on the Son of God? Jesus actually gave up His life for one thing....read the account again.

So, the Romans and Jews who tortured and killed Jesus did not have the power to inflict punishment on the Son of God? even though Jesus Himself said,
Luk 24:7
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

And Peter said
Act 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Yes, Jesus gave up his life ... to the punishment inflicted upon Him by men... to win our repentance and allegiance.

 

[PaulThomson]

But the Romans and Jewish leaders didn't bruise and chastise Him for our transgressions. The Jewish leaders accused Him (falsely) of blasphemy, and persuaded the Roman governor Pontius Pilate to pass the death sentence on Him. As far as they were concerned, they were punishing Him for blasphemy, not for the transgressions of all Christians.

The Hebrew prepositional prefix on "our transgressions" is M-, mem, meaning "from/of/out of/than". So, Jesus was wounded from/out of our transgressions. In the prophecy of Is 53, "our" stands contextually for the contemporaries of Jesus who killed Him and watched Him die. But they are representative of humanity who in every age would have wounded Him for what He taught as well, had He come personally to them, including us in the 21st Century.

 

[Breadandlamb7]

CS1, I believe you have kicked out beyondtruth33 without getting his side of his story. Is that fair and just? I want to add that during this commotion with kindness, there was a miracle that took place after the fact. Our brother Coppermill came in and heard all the commotion and expresed himself about not wanting to hear those bad words spoken because he enjoyed discipleship with beyond. Anyhow, coppermill did confess Jesus as his savior in front of many witnesses on the CS1 chat room. I encourage you to get the side of the story from beyond and have a fair trial. There were miracles took place and that should let you know the fruits of the labor. Not all the confusion and drama that satan likes to stir up. You have a pleasant day.

 

[PaulThomson]

The truth is what matters and that is found in scripture.

Well, at least we agree on that.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Where does scripture say our sins were "imputed" to Christ? There is so much that people think the Bible says that it simply does not say.

How else did he who knew no sin become sin?

How else did he pay for my sin?

show me the word trinity in the bible. or do you reject that biblical truth also?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

There is no one who, to be saved, is required to believe that Jesus was punished for our sins in our place. We are required to put our faith in Him to be saved, and that He died on account of our sins, and was raised back to life again, and that He is Lord. Yes, he bore our punishment, in that He bore the punishment we unjustly inflicted upon Him.

we did not inflict nothing on Christ.

the father did.

that is your error.. Your trying to give man to much credit. and having man doing something man can not do

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, He was bruised, wounded and chastised... by men... not by God.

No

Man did not punish Jesus for your sins. God did.

Man did not even kill Christ. Jesus gave up the ghost.

Man did not do anything God did not allow. But that was not the punishment. the punishment was spiritual death Christ suffered on the cross.

Physical death is a result of sin, not the penalty of sin. So physical death can not pay for sin. if it could. us dying would pay for our own sin.

 

[PaulThomson]

No

Man did not punish Jesus for your sins. God did.

Man did not even kill Christ. Jesus gave up the ghost.

Man did not do anything God did not allow. But that was not the punishment. the punishment was spiritual death Christ suffered on the cross.

Physical death is a result of sin, not the penalty of sin. So physical death can not pay for sin. if it could. us dying would pay for our own sin.

Physical death is the consequence for all Adam's descendants for Adam's sin, not for their own sin.

Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Jesus Christ was a descendant of Adam.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as it was being made so by law, hOs enomizetO) the son (the legal son) of Joseph, which was the son (son-in-law) of Heli (Mary's father, Mary being a descendant of Adam.),...
Luk 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Resurrection is to all through one man. Then there will be a judgement and for the rebels a second death for their own sin of rejecting Christ s King.

Jhn 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Through living a perfect life and patiently and obediently suffering an unjust death without falling into any sin, Jesus purchased the world given to Adam, and the right to judge mankind as the head of mankind. He chooses to forgives all sins apart from rebellion against His legitimate gracious and perfect rule. Those who refuse to adopt "the Way" as their lifestyle will be excluded from participating in His restored kingdom.

Mat 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Physical death is the consequence for all Adam's descendants for Adam's sin, not for their own sin.

Um No. Physical death is the result of sin.

Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Jesus Christ was a descendant of Adam.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as it was being made so by law, hOs enomizetO) the son (the legal son) of Joseph, which was the son (son-in-law) of Heli (Mary's father, Mary being a descendant of Adam.),...
Luk 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Resurrection is to all through one man. Then there will be a judgement and for the rebels a second death for their own sin of rejecting Christ s King.

Jhn 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Jesus purchased the right to judge mankind as the head of mankind. He chooses to forgives all sins apart from rebellion against His legitimate gracious and perfect rule. Those who refuse to adopt "the Way" as their lifestyle will be excluded from participating in His restored kingdom.

Mat 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Spiritual death is the wage of sin.

not physical death.

Jesus died spiritually on the cross.. Man did not kill him spiritually on the cross.

 

[PaulThomson]

Um No. Physical death is the result of sin.

Spiritual death is the wage of sin.

not physical death.

Jesus died spiritually on the cross.. Man did not kill him spiritually on the cross.

"Spiritual death" is not mentioned in scripture. How can you assert that it is the wages of sin, when the scriptures do not define it?

 

[PaulThomson]

Man did not even kill Christ. Jesus gave up the ghost.

Humans "give up the ghost" every day, who were assaulted. And they become homicide victims. Are you saying that they were not killed by men because they gave up any struggle to stay alive? So, they were no murdered?

 

[PaulThomson]

Man did not punish Jesus for your sins

Correct. God did not require anyone to be punished for our sins. Jesus was killed out of/because of/on account of/as a result of humanity's sins performed by His contemporaries against Him. He was punished unjustly by men for sins they falsely attributed to Him.

 

[PaulThomson]

Um No. Physical death is the result of sin.

Spiritual death is the wage of sin.

not physical death.

Jesus died spiritually on the cross.. Man did not kill him spiritually on the cross.

Where are you getting your certainty from? Babies die in the womb, having done neither good or evil, that is, not having sinned. Their deaths are not a result of their own sins.

Deu 1:39
And your little ones, of whom ye said, They shall be a prey, and your children, who this day know neither good nor evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

om 9:11
the children indeed being not yet born, or having done anything good or worthless (that the purpose of God according to election might abide, not of works, but of him that calls),

What does "died spiritually" mean to you, and where is that definition or description of "died spiritually" in scripture ?

Jesus said man can kill the body, but not the soul. He never talked about spirits dying. Jesus' body and soul died. Nowhere do we read of His spirit dying.