Manipulation vs Persuasion and Convincing

[1still_waters]

When I was younger, I recall hearing a sermon or lesson here and there about the topic of manipulation. None of it stuck with me. So I'm trying to figure out the difference between manipulation vs persuasion/convincing.

There seems like a very fine line between the two. On one hand if you feel strong on something, you will try to convince someone to see it your way. But on the other hand, when does persuasion turn in to manipulation?

Please consider this a discussion starter. My initial post doesn't intend to nail this topic down with one tap of the keyboard.


Manipulate
— vb
1. ( tr ) to handle or use, esp with some skill, in a process or action: to manipulate a pair of scissors
2. to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone) cleverly, skilfully, or deviously
3. to falsify (a bill, accounts, etc) for one's own advantage
4. (in physiotherapy) to examine or treat manually, as in loosening a joint


Persuade
1.to prevail on (a person) to do something, as by advising or urging: We could not persuade him to wait.
2.
to induce to believe by appealing to reason or understanding; convince: to persuade the judge of the prisoner's innocence.


The dictionary definitions offer a little compare and contrast here.

Manipulate stands out to me with the words 'control' and 'falsify'.
Persuade stands out with the words 'advising' and 'urging' and 'appealing to reason'.

So basically manipulation is more controlling and more nefarious and shady than persuasion.

Our Bible study in chat last night gave me a good scripture reference to go off as an example of manipulation.

We see a great case of it in with Joseph and that deceitful lil lady who tried to have sex with him.

Below we see this gal 'screamed for help'. Talk about manipulating a situation, being controlling and shady and falsifying information!

This gal used the delicate situation of 'rape' to pin something on poor ole Joseph! Joseph was just going about doing his own business, and next thing you know he's viewed as a rapist, just because of some manipulative, lying woman taking advantage of a perceived delicate situation like rape.

Most will hand a sympathetic hand to a woman claiming and screaming and crying rape! She probably knew this too. Knowing this, she used this to her advantage to pin something on poor ole Joseph.

So from this situation it looks like manipulative people aren't above turning on the emotions just to convince people that someone else is bad.

Genesis 39
13 When she saw that he had left his cloak in her hand and had run out of the house, 14 she called her household servants. “Look,” she said to them, “this Hebrew has been brought to us to make sport of us! He came in here to sleep with me, but I screamed. 15 When he heard me scream for help, he left his cloak beside me and ran out of the house.”

16 She kept his cloak beside her until his master came home. 17 Then she told him this story: “That Hebrew slave you brought us came to me to make sport of me. 18 But as soon as I screamed for help, he left his cloak beside me and ran out of the house.”


Anyways this is just a discussion starter for the topic of manipulation vs persuasion and convincing. It's meant to find the differences between manipulation vs persuasion and convincing. Feel free to add on to the topic with your own insights in to the topic.

 

[Jullianna]

I see much of this in my line of work. So many times I've seen things become less about truth than what you can get someone to believe. Sometimes the innocent don't go free because they don't have a decent defense (like Joseph) and the guilty do go free because they can afford a shrewd attorney.

There are those in this world who are master manipulators. Some even call themselves christians. They may not "exactly" lie, but they bend the truth to get what they want. They show up in the church sometimes, huh? (takes me back to your gossip thread, stilly)

Maybe the difference between the words can be explained in terms of leading someone to the Lord. You can show them His love and tell them His truth, but I can't imagine ever trying to "manipulate" someone's heart, can you?

Which brings me to another thought... I was studying for a lesson I'm teaching tonight on Exodus. The scriptures say in ten places that God hardened Pharoah's heart, but there are also ten times that Pharoah hardened his own heart. Your thoughts on this?

 

[Jullianna]

P.S. - don't want to hijack the thread with the Pharoah thing...just seemed kinda related to me from a different perspective.

 

[contemplative]

To me, manipulation is just persuasion or convincing without informed consent. Whatever behavior we're looking for, manipulation gets it without also trying to attain assent. Despite the negative connotations of the word, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the service of evil.

For instance, I can manipulate a patient into taking his medication without persuading or convincing him that it's necessary. Are the pills in his stomach? Manipulation. Does he agree they should be there? Persuading or convincing.

As another example, I can get my students to do their work by saying it's mandatory and threaten to fail them if they don't complete the assignments. Are they convinced or persuaded that it's necessary? No. They still do it. By imposing a grade penalty, I bypass their need to believe the work is necessary. By the end of the semester, they're better off.

Manipulation means you don't need someone to agree with you to nevertheless get the thing done.

 

[zeroturbulence]

I think manipulation means to cheat or lie in order to get something you want, whereas the other two involve sincere reasoning and proven logic.

 

[Jullianna]

Hmmm...I suppose manipulation can, indeed, bring about a positive result at times ("by whatever means necessary"; been there, done that in life-threatening situations). Even those things which are vindictively manipulative - especially for the children of God, as "we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28) However, I think I would still rather be described as one who presents a convincing argument rather than a manipulator. Maybe it's just me, but the former seems to carry a more positive connotation than the latter in 1still_waters’ context.

 

[Liamson]

We tend to see these things as if the parties involved are on relatively equal footing. For instance when parent follow a command to a stubborn child with a, ''Because I'm the parent and I said so.'' That is a socially viable form of manipulation. The Parent certainly didn't convince the child or persuade the child to do anything that was in the best interest of the child. If the shoe was on the other foot and the child tells the parent that his/her homework is at school and convinces the teacher that he left it at home, when in fact it hasn't been touched, that is also manipulation. If the two parties are on relatively equal footing, where no significant gain is necessary to gain the upper hand, manipulation can be slight and due to its barely noticeable application is certainly the most dangerous. As would be the case of a wife who plays cute when questioned about her taste in expensive clothes or credit spending habits.

These forms function to serve the purpose of enabling the leveraging party some semblance of control at the detriment of the persons being manipulated. In the illustrations reason truth and logic fell victim to the whims of the perpetrating parties. These are very blatant but at the same time, we can coercively manipulate people without realizing it. For instance, when was the last time you told someone they ''owed you one'' to get something from them?

 

[thimsrebma]

I think convincing or persuading is simply giving reasons for an argument or situation in order to get someone to see your point of view. On the other hand I think of manipulation as someone using something to gain leverage over another person for selfish motives, which can generally involve deception, lies, half truths, black mail, etc.

I think a person can choose to simply persuade or manipulate someone even in the same situation. Its all about your approach.

Persuasion
Wife says to husband: Jim, can you pick up the clothes at the cleaners? I have alot to do this afternoon and dont think I will make it before they close.

Manipulation
Wife says to husband: Jim, will you pick up the clothes from the cleaners? As usual, I have to stop by the store, pick up Molly from dance and Jeff from soccer. Then I have to drop that cassarole off at Susans'. I just don't have time. So if you want your suit you are gonna have to pick it up yourself.

In the second example the wife tries to make the husband feel bad because she typically runs more errans than he does and she also throws it in his face that the clothes are his. To me this is manipulation.

 

[DanuckInUSA]

I think neither or good. The appeal to reason is my issue. Appeal to their heart. Love on 'em

 

[NukePooch]

Manipulation
Wife says to husband: Jim, will you pick up the clothes from the cleaners? As usual, I have to stop by the store, pick up Molly from dance and Jeff from soccer. Then I have to drop that cassarole off at Susans'. I just don't have time. So if you want your suit you are gonna have to pick it up yourself.

In the second example the wife tries to make the husband feel bad because she typically runs more errans than he does and she also throws it in his face that the clothes are his. To me this is manipulation.

I think it can also go beyond that as well, when the events/situation itself is manipulated.
"Jim, I can't make it to the cleaners, so would you please go? I already called them and told them to expect you. The owner's going to stay open later than closing time just to wait on you, so hurry it up, because he said something about having a funeral to attend. Also, take the cleaning bill over to Mabel's house. She's the one who borrowed my dress and spilled food all over it, so she deserves to pay for the cleaning. She's expecting you too, but I didn't tell her why. I don't want her to skip out on paying the bill. I think it would carry more weight coming from you, because after all, Jim, you're the pastor."

 

[thimsrebma]

I think it can also go beyond that as well, when the events/situation itself is manipulated.
"Jim, I can't make it to the cleaners, so would you please go? I already called them and told them to expect you. The owner's going to stay open later than closing time just to wait on you, so hurry it up, because he said something about having a funeral to attend. Also, take the cleaning bill over to Mabel's house. She's the one who borrowed my dress and spilled food all over it, so she deserves to pay for the cleaning. She's expecting you too, but I didn't tell her why. I don't want her to skip out on paying the bill. I think it would carry more weight coming from you, because after all, Jim, you're the pastor."

Now that is manipulation grandeur. I think you turned Jim's wife into a completely self centered lunatic.

 

[Thomas60]

As a general principle, all forms of persuasion are manipulation, but not all forms of manipulation are persuasion. I distinguish the difference (in my common interpretation) as when techniques employed to provide an unfair situation where persuasion and convincing can occur, with or without knowledge of the recipient.

e.g. Taking a son to networking events full of people with the agenda's you wish to push on him is manipulation (because of your intention of the events purpose makes it a technique employed).
e.g. Taking a son to a networking event for general or joint interests, then as a result conversations and bargaining occurs would be persuasion.