Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords

[SonJudgment]

The Bible addresses heresy and false teachings in several passages. Here are some relevant verses:

1. 2 Peter 2:1 (KJV): “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
2. Galatians 1:6-7 (KJV): “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”
3. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV): “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
4. Hebrews 13:9 (KJV): “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

So again, a heresy is any doctrine that is contrary to the orthodoxy. The orthodoxy in Christianity is the Bible. In order for something to be a heresy in the context of Christianity it has to be clearly against the teachings of the Bible. For example, evolution is probably the most common heresy in our time because not only is this doctrine not found in the Bible, but it is in outright contradiction to the biblical account of creation by God. So therefore the topic of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords of Sorrow is not heretical because it is derived solely from the Bible. What you are trying to do here is twist into the topic and make it about whatever your personal issues are with the Catholics, but frankly that has nothing to do with the topic at hand since anyone that believes in the Bible and believes in Christianity can enjoy the story and artwork and think about the subject at hand without being a Catholic. Use a little reason here; do the Catholics have a monopoly on Mary now? Absolutely not, she is the mother of all Christians.

 

[wolfwint]

Again, not purely from the RCC, Orthodox also contain this, and if you follow sola scriptura this should be acceptable as well to mainstream protestantism. Mainstream protestantism is defined as accepting the essential christian doctrines (ie: trinity, birth-life-crucifixion-resurrection of Jesus, that the Bible serves as the backbone of all religious teachings.)




Indeed! This is part of the study of the episode and art as it displays the humanity of Mary and that's one of the goals of the topic One can easily see and understand and even empathize with Mary in a really human quality. When I say she has a human quality I am not meaning that she is potentially not human, what I am meaning is in literature and in artwork the humanity of characters sometimes gets lost in the medium. The Seven Swords of Sorrow that Mary undergoes show us and remind us of her essential humanity. Now this is moreso what I'm looking for in this study than the endless circle about protestants vs. catholics vs orthodox.








Well yes I mean they did start off as the Early CHurch I think everyone knows this. Though in our time today they are now distinct entities and thus why they are referred to as distinct entities.




I think you don't really know what heresy is. A heresy is a doctrine that is against the orthodoxy, in this case the orthodoxy is the Bible. In order to be a heresy none of this would be in the Bible or it would outright be in contradiction to the Bible. Since it is found in the Bible it is not a heresy, it is just merely a study into the Bible, albeit a more advanced study than the typical rumaging around the basics of Christianity since we already know these and accept the basics. As far as idolatry goes, all idols are understood to be false gods by their worshippers, this is what differentiates the golden calf from say the gold cherubim on the ark of the covenant. As such I would encourage you to not worship an idol and other gods since there is only one God whom is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, not three gods, but one God in three persons.

At any rate I will conclude the study today and then we can descend into the various digressions and points that pretty much have nothing to do with the topic that some of you are trying to make.

Nope, in the you called mainstream Protestantism the topic theme playes no role.
The origin of your theme comes out of the RCC. Bible sola Scriptura nowhere called Mary a queen. Or gave her attributes for a queen. I dont know what is your goal with this topic.
You wrote in Post 39 that Mary become the mother of all christiandom. And here now you put yours or any other ideas into the scripture and leave sola Scriptura!

 

[SonJudgment]

Nope, in the you called mainstream Protestantism the topic theme playes no role.
The origin of your theme comes out of the RCC. Bible sola Scriptura nowhere called Mary a queen. Or gave her attributes for a queen. I dont know what is your goal with this topic.
You wrote in Post 39 that Mary become the mother of all christiandom. And here now you put yours or any other ideas into the scripture and leave sola Scriptura!

The goal is already stated in the OP. What is your goal in trying to derail the topic? Sola scriptura means that it comes from the Bible that the Bible is the authority. The tale of Mary and the seven sorrows is in the Bible and this is the only place it is derived from. You are just simply incorrect about it coming out of Catholicism. Just because the Catholics observe it does not mean they made it, as explained before the Orthodox also contain this. The question you should ask yourself is; why would the mainstream Christian denominations contain this teaching? The answer is because it is in the Bible. My sense is that some of you just have hang ups about the Catholics, but I have no such hangups, if you want to talk about Catholicism, that's pretty much your problem not mine, go talk about it somewhere else.

 

[maxwel]

So again, a heresy is any doctrine that is contrary to the orthodoxy. The orthodoxy in Christianity is the Bible. In order for something to be a heresy in the context of Christianity it has to be clearly against the teachings of the Bible. For example, evolution is probably the most common heresy in our time because not only is this doctrine not found in the Bible, but it is in outright contradiction to the biblical account of creation by God. So therefore the topic of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords of Sorrow is not heretical because it is derived solely from the Bible. What you are trying to do here is twist into the topic and make it about whatever your personal issues are with the Catholics, but frankly that has nothing to do with the topic at hand since anyone that believes in the Bible and believes in Christianity can enjoy the story and artwork and think about the subject at hand without being a Catholic. Use a little reason here; do the Catholics have a monopoly on Mary now? Absolutely not, she is the mother of all Christians.

One might conjecture this is nonsense:

1. Mary, in scripture, is never called the Queen of Hearts, the Queen of Sorrows, or the queen of anything else - she's never called a queen.

2. The 7 Swords of Sorrows don't seem to exist... the term doesn't exist in scripture, and the concept doesn't seem to exist in scripture.

3. This "doctrine" starts with a presupposition that Mary is unique in sorrow above all others (not a biblical idea), then based on that presupposition it simply picks 7 unhappy things, arbitrarily lumps them into a pile, and arbitrarily labels them "The 7 Swords of Sorrows".
A.) There is no "sword" mentioned in any of the "sorrows" except the prophecy of simeon.
B.) The term "sorrow" isn't even specifically mentioned in most of the "sorrows."
C.) Mary is never called a queen of anything.
D.) At least one of these supposed sorrows isn't presented as sorrowful at all (the young Christ teaching the teachers in the temple).
E.) There is nothing connecting these random events, textually, into a cohesive doctrine... other than a presupposition to create a doctrine about Mary.

4. The 7 Swords of Sorrows - Their Genesis Explained:
A.) Imagine that you have a picture of something in your mind, and then you look up at the stars, and start randomly connecting the stars with lines, picking only the stars that fit the picture already in your mind. And you keep connecting the stars needed to make the picture.
B.) You are merely picking random stars that fit a picture you already have... there is no pattern already in the stars.
C.) There is no pattern in the stars, there is just a starfield... YOU are creating the pattern by only picking certain stars.
D.) Then when this is all done, you give this pattern of stars a label, and you say, "Look, I've discovered the 7 Swords Of Sorrows!"



I love all the brethren in Christ, of whatever denomination.
But this is a place where we discuss and debate.
If you post something, it will be challenged.

God Bless.


.

 

[wolfwint]

N

The goal is already stated in the OP. What is your goal in trying to derail the topic? Sola scriptura means that it comes from the Bible that the Bible is the authority. The tale of Mary and the seven sorrows is in the Bible and this is the only place it is derived from. You are just simply incorrect about it coming out of Catholicism. Just because the Catholics observe it does not mean they made it, as explained before the Orthodox also contain this. The question you should ask yourself is; why would the mainstream Christian denominations contain this teaching? The answer is because it is in the Bible. My sense is that some of you just have hang ups about the Catholics, but I have no such hangups, if you want to talk about Catholicism, that's pretty much your problem not mine, go talk about it somewhere else.

Nope, you are coming up with RCC teachings!
That Mary is the mother of christianhood is nowhere written and taught in the bible. You mentioned sola Scriptura. What you are telling about Mary as mother of christianhood or as Queen of the hearts has nothing to do with sola scriptura!

 

[SonJudgment]

Again, Mary as Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords of Sorrow is an artistic theme. The theme of the artwork and the story comes from the Bible. These themes are taken from the Bible. While the Catholics as a mainstream Christian denomination observe it, they did not create it, just like they did not create Mary nor did they create the Bible. This is why the theme is found not just in the Catholics but also in the other mainstream Christian denominations like the Orthodox. The Orthodox did not create the theme either because again it is derived solely from the Bible. If you want to give the Catholics or the Orthodox a monopoly on Mary then that's your problem, not mine. Mary is the mother of Christendom because she is the mother of Christ. All Christians have a claim to Mary, the Catholics do not have a monopoly on Mary. If you want to talk about Catholicism you're talking to the wrong person basically in the very wrong topic. Move on or engage in the topic at hand. I'm not going to continue to be gracious with a bunch of bad faith actors, I will not repeat myself endlessly, any digression after this point will not be addressed.

 

[maxwel]

Mary is the mother of Christendom because she is the mother of Christ.

That is stated nowhere in scripture.

To call Mary the "mother of Christendom" is to suggest she has some kind of unique authority in the Church... and she does not.

That is nowhere to be found in scripture.




BTW... do we call Hitler's mother the "mother of Nazism"?
No.
Why not?
I'll just let everyone think about that.



.
.?

 

[wolfwint]

Again, Mary as Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords of Sorrow is an artistic theme. The theme of the artwork and the story comes from the Bible. These themes are taken from the Bible. While the Catholics as a mainstream Christian denomination observe it, they did not create it, just like they did not create Mary nor did they create the Bible. This is why the theme is found not just in the Catholics but also in the other mainstream Christian denominations like the Orthodox. The Orthodox did not create the theme either because again it is derived solely from the Bible. If you want to give the Catholics or the Orthodox a monopoly on Mary then that's your problem, not mine. Mary is the mother of Christendom because she is the mother of Christ. All Christians have a claim to Mary, the Catholics do not have a monopoly on Mary. If you want to talk about Catholicism you're talking to the wrong person basically in the very wrong topic. Move on or engage in the topic at hand. I'm not going to continue to be gracious with a bunch of bad faith actors, I will not repeat myself endlessly, any digression after this point will not be addressed.

I am just wrote it to you, because you claim that your topic is sola Scriptura. And that is definitiv not the case. Art or not. If you claim it is sola scriptura, then it should be sola Scriptura, right?

 

[SonJudgment]

Well my apologies to the serious Christians who engaged in this topic in good faith for digressing with the milk drinkers and the wolves in sheep's clothing. We will now continue and examine the 6th sword of sorrow and then finish with the 7th tonight before bed. The 6th sword of sorrow is Jesus death on the cross and him being taken off the cross. This is also a pretty obvious sorrow as not only did Mary have to watch her son suffer on the cross but now she has seen her son die which becomes a reality as the soldiers consider on breaking his legs but only find that he has already died. This also fulfills several prophecies. Much like in the 5th sorrow though there is some goodness here as well, just as in the 5th sorrow there is some goodness in that Jesus designates Mary as John's mother and thereby as mother of all faithful Christians, so too though it is sad that Jesus has to die for the evil we have committed when he has himself done nothing wrong, yet is there the promise of salvation as in his death he fulfills the messianic prophecies and becomes the appropriate sacrifice for the sins of humanity. And so Mary suffer her 6th sorrow for her faith in God and her overall goodness in giving all of us even into this day a great blessing in the person of Jesus Christ.

John 19:30-37

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

 

[wolfwint]

Well my apologies to the serious Christians who engaged in this topic in good faith for digressing with the milk drinkers and the wolves in sheep's clothing. We will now continue and examine the 6th sword of sorrow and then finish with the 7th tonight before bed. The 6th sword of sorrow is Jesus death on the cross and him being taken off the cross. This is also a pretty obvious sorrow as not only did Mary have to watch her son suffer on the cross but now she has seen her son die which becomes a reality as the soldiers consider on breaking his legs but only find that he has already died. This also fulfills several prophecies. Much like in the 5th sorrow though there is some goodness here as well, just as in the 5th sorrow there is some goodness in that Jesus designates Mary as John's mother and thereby as mother of all faithful Christians, so too though it is sad that Jesus has to die for the evil we have committed when he has himself done nothing wrong, yet is there the promise of salvation as in his death he fulfills the messianic prophecies and becomes the appropriate sacrifice for the sins of humanity. And so Mary suffer her 6th sorrow for her faith in God and her overall goodness in giving all of us even into this day a great blessing in the person of Jesus Christ.

John 19:30-37

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Not Mary has given us in her goodness a great blessing in the person of Jesus Christ! Where is this written in the bible.?
God the father sent his son Jesus Christ! John 3,16

 

[Evmur]

Thank you for harmonizing all the denominations.
God bless you.

please stop

 

[SonJudgment]

We finally reach the 7th sword of sorrow which is the burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea. Here we can see how sorrowful this is for Mary in that the finality and reality of death brings. One can only imagine Mary's sorrow in that she is a parent that is burying her child. The sorrow is punctuated by the rolling of an incredibly big stone in front of the sepulchre. The weight of such a stone can be compared to the weight of Mary's sorrow and the reality that her son Jesus has just been slandered, mocked, rejected, crucified, and died.

Mark 15:39-47

39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

 

[marielcz]

you don't need to have a few sentences written in the bible to be able to test the power and spiritual gifts yourself, after praying the holy rosary

 

[ResidentAlien]

Scripture clearly teaches us not to use vain repetition when praying, but to use conversational language when speaking to the Father. Pray the rosary all you want, but just know it's not Christian and you won't be heard when you do it.

 

[SonJudgment]

Again the topic is not really meant to promote Catholicism nor to deride it, but is about Mary and the seven sorrows. There are other topics about Catholicism if that is what interests you and those would be more appropriate places to talk about Catholicism in, either for or against it. Since the general story of the seven sorrows is concluded now people can be more free range I suppose with the discussion, but keep it about Mary and the seven sorrows she had to undergo for her faith and the excellent Christian artwork in the theme of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords.

 

[wolfwint]

Again the topic is not really meant to promote Catholicism nor to deride it, but is about Mary and the seven sorrows. There are other topics about Catholicism if that is what interests you and those would be more appropriate places to talk about Catholicism in, either for or against it. Since the general story of the seven sorrows is concluded now people can be more free range I suppose with the discussion, but keep it about Mary and the seven sorrows she had to undergo for her faith and the excellent Christian artwork in the theme of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords.

For shure Mary had more then 7 sorrows in her life. And sorry to say. Maby you should choice another thread then the bible discussion thread for your ideas.
Btw. as I said in my last posts. Your thoughts about Mary have nothing to do with the bible. She is not queen, she is not mother of christianhood nor she gave blessings in the person of Jesus Christ to us!

 

[rrcn]

In the event there are readers who are not fully versed in the subject presented, this link is a Biblical reply suitable for those who drink milk as well as everyone else. It may even be informative to Jesuits.

 

[rrcn]

you don't need to have a few sentences written in the bible to be able to test the power and spiritual gifts yourself, after praying the holy rosary

Looks like a new member of the graduating class has beamed in and is recommending “praying the holy rosary”. It’s pathetic, they are drinking poisoned milk.

 

[ResidentAlien]

In the event there are readers who are not fully versed in the subject presented, this link is a Biblical reply suitable for those who drink milk as well as everyone else. It may even be informative to Jesuits.

Just a head's up, the guy in the link is a SDA pastor. Not judging, but people have a right to know where a Bible teacher is coming from.

 

[rrcn]

Just a head's up, the guy in the link is a SDA pastor. Not judging, but people have a right to know where a Bible teacher is coming from.

That is true, before he was a Seventh-day Adventist he was a Catholic, then an atheist and then a cave man. While living in a cave he discovered and studied a Bible that someone had left. It is also true that the Bible is studied and revered by all Seventh-day Adventists. There are young Christians in this forum who could easily be deceived by the Catholic doctrines presented by the OP. I posted the very best Biblical rebuttal available to me, I have no hidden agenda.