Mat 18:34 Who are the tormentors here?

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kennethcadwell said:
Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
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I agree with the verse, I dont believe he is showing finality in that picture but a lesson there because of that TILL, I cant see how it is final with a TILL in there.

And beause as much as we are forgiven of Him as sinners, we also need to learn of Him, and we dont always do this perfectly, and there are times of doing wrongly (ie not extending mercy as we should) holding a grudge (as I have been guilty of) and he is showing us the game plan if we do not and what our heavenly Father will do to us. Theres a TILL

Otherwise, if you have not shewed mercy (even once) has sealed your fate for ever, whereas Paul encourages them to be forgiving, tender hearted, reminds them that love keeps no records of wrongs etc, thats the aim, our desire to be accepted of Him and doing those things that please him. Does it look like they did so always? No, but thats what being chastised is about too. To learn to do right as he teaches sinners in the way.
 
Treepick1 said:
Well, thank you brother. I am reading the scriptures etc.

However, I would also like to be under a baptism ritual.

Regards
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One of the basics of baptism is that a person cannot baptize themselves. This is why you must seek out other local Believers that you can fellowship with. If none can be found near you, pray that the Lord would send someone.
 
Sophia said:
One of the basics of baptism is that a person cannot baptize themselves. This is why you must seek out other local Believers that you can fellowship with. If none can be found near you, pray that the Lord would send someone.
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Thank you, sis.

Yes, I was speaking of water baptisms.

Thank you for the suggestion about prayer.

My regards,
~Shalom
 
To the OP:
In the physical nature of the story, the tormentors would be jailers. In the spiritual nature of the story, the tormentors would be the trials and chastising of God that He sends upon His wayward Children to correct them. He does not spare the rod and spoil His Children, but disciplines the ones He loves, out of love.
Are these tormentors actually angels? Perhaps not exclusively, but other passages do show that He sometimes uses spirits and angels to chasten His People. I think the parable should bring us to acknowledge the importance of forgiveness rather than be a doctrinal statement on angelology or eschatology or eternal insecurity.
 
Treepick1 said:
Thank you, sis.

Yes, I was speaking of water baptisms.

Thank you for the suggestion about prayer.

My regards,
~Shalom
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I know many missionaries working in India. PM me with your general area, and perhaps I can contact someone in that area and tell them of your need. Even if I don't know anyone in the region, I'm sure one of the missionaries will know someone closer by, or could even make a trip themselves.
 
ISeeYou said:
I agree with the verse, I dont believe he is showing finality in that picture but a lesson there because of that TILL, I cant see how it is final with a TILL in there.

And beause as much as we are forgiven of Him as sinners, we also need to learn of Him, and we dont always do this perfectly, and there are times of doing wrongly (ie not extending mercy as we should) holding a grudge (as I have been guilty of) and he is showing us the game plan if we do not and what our heavenly Father will do to us. Theres a TILL

Otherwise, if you have not shewed mercy (even once) has sealed your fate for ever, whereas Paul encourages them to be forgiving, tender hearted, reminds them that love keeps no records of wrongs etc, thats the aim, our desire to be accepted of Him and doing those things that please him. Does it look like they did so always? No, but thats what being chastised is about too. To learn to do right as he teaches sinners in the way.
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The finality of it is because going back to what the Lord Jesus said, as He said if you do not forgive others of their trespasses/sins then the Heavenly Father will not forgive you of yours. You have to have the forgiveness to get salvation/eternal life. If you don't have that forgiveness then you are still enmity to God.
 
Sophia said:
To the OP:
In the physical nature of the story, the tormentors would be jailers. In the spiritual nature of the story, the tormentors would be the trials and chastising of God that He sends upon His wayward Children to correct them. He does not spare the rod and spoil His Children, but disciplines the ones He loves, out of love.
Are these tormentors actually angels? Perhaps not exclusively, but other passages do show that He sometimes uses spirits and angels to chasten His People. I think the parable should bring us to acknowledge the importance of forgiveness rather than be a doctrinal statement on angelology or eschatology or eternal insecurity.
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Thanks for your post, I have read people use this to show the lake of fire with the TILL in it so I do think its important to show both though, and compare as the Holy Ghost teaches us to do just that.

I am not OSAS, and I dont even see "eternal insecurity" or whatever men call it in there.

I stay away from the doctrines of men and all their olgies and isms and just look at the scripture and really prefer the scriptures for the truth of a thing.

The reason I went back to bring it forward, is this

Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Because when he spake in a parable he did so in relation to the hidden things of old, so its always best to check there for your doctrine (as his doctrine was not his) but the one who sent Him.
 
kennethcadwell said:
The finality of it is because going back to what the Lord Jesus said, as He said if you do not forgive others of their trespasses/sins then the Heavenly Father will not forgive you of yours. You have to have the forgiveness to get salvation/eternal life. If you don't have that forgiveness then you are still enmity to God.
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Its not final in that the lesson which will be inflicted you (ie the tormentors) if it is that we let no debt remain outstanding but to love one another (and love keeps no records of wrongs) but its still open ended, in that its not speaking of the Lake of fire here, but believers (who have obtained mercy) who must learn to do true judgment (which is to show mercy), and this is what is "due" him. It is indeed mercy (no doubt) but to me it shows how God will deal with you here (on this side) and yet of things that relate to your brothers). For if you dont forgive your brother (from the heart), this is how the Father will treat you and you will be delivered over to the tormentors TILL (and in respects to what is due), which is mercy to obtain the same.

I believe he is able to teach someone through being afflicted in that way.

Im not even OSAS and I dont see that as final, but they do in relation to Jesus own disciples?

How on earth does that work in respects to that particular doctrine then?

Jesus is telling you what will happen to you which is in the power of God to deal with you in this thing (in that way).

We will disagree here it seems, I wont wrangle over it, I will state my case and leave it go.
 
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Have seen this - a person that had all things going for them - lost their mind due to unforgiveness and pulled away from other Christians so as not to be in any more near the conviction of the Spirit in them -- yet, still preaching at whoever they can about the love of God, etc. etc.... but when one gets close enough to them - they find they're not the person that they used to be and have lost mental stability because of this growing unforgiveness that's spreading outward to more and more that they are now not forgiving.

When you love someone that's entered this state of it affected their personality or soundness of mind that they once had - it's sadder than a heart can take. They begin to cut others out of their lives one by one and they begin to isolate themselves from other Christians, as it becomes like a cancer.

I know they are still saved - but I fear the chastisement is going to keep getting harder. One such person was my 2nd closest friend and it's a cause of much pain and tears to see it happen. They can't forgive their own family nor their spouse and it's been heart breaking to watch this spread from just a few people that they couldn't forgive to more being added by the year for the 6 yrs that I've know them. Please pray for this person with me, Sister, as tears come with just the thought of such a beautiful person that's rotting from the inside yet looks 'healthy' on the outside - except with their spouse and a few others.

Thank you for this topic and for yours and any others prayers!

God Bless you and Welcome Here, Sister.
 
ISeeYou said:
Just curious, who do each of you believe the tormentors are in Mat 18:34 unto whom Jesus said the Heavenly Father would hand one over to in this particular situation?

Things to note in the picture is, the servant was a forgiven one who became a wicked servant in not showing mercy on his fellowservant, and you can go back and read the whole thing

Starting here he asks,

Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

And Jesus says one more thing,

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Even as we know,

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So who are the tormentors supposed to represent? is it being delivered unto Satan to be taught something, or is it like an evil spirit from the LORD as is shown in Saul which come to trouble him?

Seems limited in time as it is written this way

He delivered him to the tormentors, *till* he should pay all that was due unto him.

And what do you believe would be due to him?
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Several things come to mind.

1) Those who do not forgive have unforgiving hearts, showing they themselves have not been forgiven
and are not saved. The same with the Lord's Prayer.

2) Tormentors are found in NT teaching on eternal fire in Lk 16:23, 28, 13:28
(see also Mt 3:12, 5:22, 7:19, 13:40, 42, 50, 18:8, 9, 25:41, etc., etc.)

3) Paying all that is due is also found in Mt 5:26.
"Til" is not a good thing in Mt 18:34, for we can never pay back all that we owe God's justice for our sin against him.
Translate: it means torment forever. . .in the fire of 2), above.
 
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ChristIsGod said:
Have seen this - a person that had all things going for them - lost their mind due to unforgiveness and pulled away from other Christians so as not to be in any more near the conviction of the Spirit in them -- yet, still preaching at whoever they can about the love of God, etc. etc.... but when one gets close enough to them - they find they're not the person that they used to be and have lost mental stability because of this growing unforgiveness that's spreading outward to more and more that they are now not forgiving.

When you love someone that's entered this state of it affected their personality or soundness of mind that they once had - it's sadder than a heart can take. They begin to cut others out of their lives one by one and they begin to isolate themselves from other Christians, as it becomes like a cancer.

I know they are still saved - but I fear the chastisement is going to keep getting harder. One such person was my 2nd closest friend and it's a cause of much pain and tears to see it happen. They can't forgive their own family nor their spouse and it's been heart breaking to watch this spread from just a few people that they couldn't forgive to more being added by the year for the 6 yrs that I've know them. Please pray for this person with me, Sister, as tears come with just the thought of such a beautiful person that's rotting from the inside yet looks 'healthy' on the outside - except with their spouse and a few others.

Thank you for this topic and for yours and any others prayers!

God Bless you and Welcome Here, Sister.
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God bless you too, and I sure will, our family has this with one of my own sisters, as I was just telling someone here with me about our family's predicament with the same although he is not aware of the extent. But sure, you can observe similar oftentimes because I know the unforgiveness she carries around (especially at our mom) is eating her up continually. Its is like this ball and chain she carries around under the which she appears to be locked up under until she can forgive (in this case my mother). At least thats the way I can describe it (looking in) she is really miserable in it. The longer one is locked up under that the harder it seems to be for them get out from under it, instead of getting more uncomfortable in it they start to get comfortable in it, sort of like digging their heels further into that place. Then continue to further blame the one (they wont forgive) for how they presently feel (who they believe is the cause of the their current (ever worsening) condition. Then it just seems to become this bitter root somewhere along the road. It ressembles a festering sore that just wont heal.

In this instance, I cant really be certain, because my sister isnt really a believer as one might count one I suppose, she doesnt abide in the doctrine of Christ, shes glad he saves sinners but she isnt interested in anything else besides that living in fornication. However, I think the same principle could apply if only in the sense of the sowing and reaping effect. Cant really say for sure.

The chruch, or christians (as a whole) cut other christians out of each others lives all the time for various reasons, some good, some not so good depends. Not all issues are recconcilable, sometimes you must let someone be as a heathen or publican to you as Jesus said, and I believe that the Amish have shunning mastered, I believe in the practice and I dont think its all that bad, it beats being around that person all the time.

You an only pray for them, that God grant them repentance unto life in this thing (whatever it is).

God bless you and yours in Christ Jesus the Lord
 
Elin said:
Several things come to mind.

1) Those who do not forgive have unforgiving hearts, showing they themselves have not been forgiven
and are not saved. The same with the Lord's Prayer.

2) Tormentors are found in NT teaching on eternal fire in Lk 16:23, 28, 13:28
(see also Mt 3:12, 5:22, 7:19, 13:40, 42, 50, 18:8, 9, 25:41, etc., etc.)

3) Paying all that is due is also found in Mt 5:26.
"Til" is not a good thing in Mt 18:34, for we can never pay back all that we owe God's justice for our sin against him.
Translate: it means torment forever. . .in the fire of 2), above.
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Okay, thanks for your post too Elin
 
Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 12:1 - Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.
 
Sophia said:
I know many missionaries working in India. PM me with your general area, and perhaps I can contact someone in that area and tell them of your need. Even if I don't know anyone in the region, I'm sure one of the missionaries will know someone closer by, or could even make a trip themselves.
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Thank you for the help. Gby
 
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