Matthew 23:8-12

[breno785au]

These verses clearly state that we are not to have masters or assume the role of master as a child of God.
But it seems that many local churches ignore this Scripture.
Some local churches seem to have a milti-tier membership. Those who are in authority, rule the congregation, assume the role of master while the majority have little or no voice in the affairs of the local church.

Why do local church members allow this to happen?
Why do some assume they are special, anointed by God, and make themselves masters over others?

We need leaders. Leaders have direction, drive and show the way. They are to lift people up when they have fallen.
And those leaders are to be lead by the ultimate Leader, Jesus.
Sure there's bad leadership, or those in position of leadership and not leaders at all.

I returned to a workplace earlier this year which lost its leadership, it was chaos, the people who weren't leaders made the place a complete mess.

Once leadership was reinstated, there was order, efficiency and direction.

Trust me, you don't want an anarchist system in the church, it doesn't work.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

OH GOOD GRIEF!!!........MATTHEW IS ABOUT THE MINISTRY OF JESUS UNDER THE OLD COVENANT!!!!

God has appointed teachers, pastors etc ....trouble is not many "christians" can seem to determine if their leaders are shepherds or are just sheep in wolves' clothing. Everyone needs to put on their Berean big pants.

 

[SpoonJuly]

We need leaders. Leaders have direction, drive and show the way. They are to lift people up when they have fallen.
And those leaders are to be lead by the ultimate Leader, Jesus.
Sure there's bad leadership, or those in position of leadership and not leaders at all.

I returned to a workplace earlier this year which lost its leadership, it was chaos, the people who weren't leaders made the place a complete mess.

Once leadership was reinstated, there was order, efficiency and direction.

Trust me, you don't want an anarchist system in the church, it doesn't work.

I agree----
But my whole point is simple-----
Who is to put these men in the leadership position?
Is it according to Scripture to have a two tier system of membership-------
Those in leadership who rule the church and all others who have no voice?

I understand that everyone cannot be leaders, but everyone should have a voice.
This is not a business, this is a local church charged with preaching the Gospel.

 

[SpoonJuly]

OH GOOD GRIEF!!!........MATTHEW IS ABOUT THE MINISTRY OF JESUS UNDER THE OLD COVENANT!!!!

God has appointed teachers, pastors etc ....trouble is not many "christians" can seem to determine if their leaders are shepherds or are just sheep in wolves' clothing. Everyone needs to put on their Berean big pants.

So if I walk into your congregation and tell you God sent me to teach you, are you going to believe me?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

So if I walk into your congregation and tell you God sent me to teach you, are you going to believe me?

I would hear you and check you out against scripture.
Wolves are easily spotted.........the elect cannot be deceived.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I would hear you and check you out against scripture.
Wolves are easily spotted.........the elect cannot be deceived.

So are you part of the leadership or just a member?
This is the whole point----
Some one must decide----
Is it up to the leaders or should everyone have a voice?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

So are you part of the leadership or just a member?
This is the whole point----
Some one must decide----
Is it up to the leaders or should everyone have a voice?

This is America.......no one is holding you captive.
You dont want the hear it?, leave.
Find another teacher, find another congregation, find a home church.

You can take your quesion to the pastor or deacons on whatever you have a problem with in leadership, but if you get no result, then find another leader.

The only criteria should be: Does this teaching line up with contextual scripture or is this leader scripture picking to make HIS point.
Ypu have to be "biblically literate" before you even know the difference.

 

[breno785au]

I agree----
But my whole point is simple-----
Who is to put these men in the leadership position?
Is it according to Scripture to have a two tier system of membership-------
Those in leadership who rule the church and all others who have no voice?

I understand that everyone cannot be leaders, but everyone should have a voice.
This is not a business, this is a local church charged with preaching the Gospel.

I believe Holy Spirit should appoint leaders. I'm sure you believe the same
I can only speak for my congregation obviously.
My example of business is an example of what happens without leadership. And I think everyone should have a voice but I also believe not everyone's voice is correct...including my own.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But who are to select these elders?

Since the apostles are long gone, the existing elders in any church must take full responsibility -- under God and Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- for properly (and prayerfully) selecting men who meet ALL the qualifications listed in Scripture.

And they must monitor each other to prevent abuses. That of course is the biblical standard. Whether or not it is followed is something else.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Since the apostles are long gone, the existing elders in any church must take full responsibility -- under God and Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- for properly (and prayerfully) selecting men who meet ALL the qualifications listed in Scripture.

And they must monitor each other to prevent abuses. That of course is the biblical standard. Whether or not it is followed is something else.

But who selects those first elders in a local church?
And why is it not according to Scripture for all members to have a voice?

 

[SpoonJuly]

I believe Holy Spirit should appoint leaders. I'm sure you believe the same
I can only speak for my congregation obviously.
My example of business is an example of what happens without leadership. And I think everyone should have a voice but I also believe not everyone's voice is correct...including my own.

What is important is to not make quick decisions or allow personal preference to influence you.
We always spent much time in prayer, seeking Holy Spirit leadership, and examining any person who is to be placed in a church office.
Each person selected must meet the standards presented for bishops and deacons in Scripture.
Pastor, Deacons, teachers, even the church treasure.
The person selected must also have a desire, a Holy Spirit calling if you wish, to serve the church.
I believe it is selling a congregation short to suggest they are not able to make a Holy Spirit lead decision.
A congregation that is properly taught and led by those church leaders can make proper decisions.
If a congregation is not able to do so, is not that a sign of failure of those in leadership rolls?

 

[Lanolin]

You might want to check Numbers 20 regarding your last sentence. Moses struck a rock when God told him to speak to it. For that he died outside the promised land.

Yes he disobeyed but look how he treated Gods people who he was supposed to lead 'hear ye now rebels must we fetch you water out of this rock?' Then he struck the rock...and it gave water, but thing is Moses made is seem like HE was the one fetching water instead of it being God giving them water.
God was not pleased that Moses failed to sanctify Him in the eyes of the children of Israel.

In many churches the leaders make out thy are the ones leading when they ought to be glorifying God who is the one givng them instructions they are to follow, not take it upon themselves and put down the congregation. Hear Moses being annoyed with the children of Israel calling them rebels, saying must WE fetch YOU water when it was God who was giving them water. If the children of israel were that bad for merely being thirsty...God would have punished them himself like swallowed them up or sent more snakes, but here it was Moses who was in the wrong for getting annoyed with them.

 

[KALYNA18]

Since the apostles are long gone, the existing elders in any church must take full responsibility -- under God and Christ with the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- for properly (and prayerfully) selecting men who meet ALL the qualifications listed in Scripture.

And they must monitor each other to prevent abuses. That of course is the biblical standard. Whether or not it is followed is something else.

The elders do not step up any more, because the church wants to keep them under the thumb. Name calling of a mother senior in front of her daughter, week after week she was there, and no one steps in. Humiliation in front of other's is not from the Lord, calling people devil, is speaking your own native language, " when the devil speaks of a lie, he speaks of his own. " Sitting under such evil, affects EVERYONE. aNY WONDER, many are sick, in the church? Take the real FACT experiment, of speaking nice things, to plants, and rice, and cursing, or just about to the other group. To do this, is not wise and not Godly. First it is stealing the health of his own family, for week after week to listen to abusive language, will affect the immune system. It not only will weaken the spirit, but also the physical immune system, and many may get inflicted with diseases, just as the rice got rotten, from the daily language. This is true. I've listened to several preachers, who did the exact same thing. All their wifes were diagnosed with the exact same thing.
The sins of the fathers, will be handed down to their children.

 

[KALYNA18]

[QUOTE="KALYNA18, post: 3818544, member: 247311"]The elders do not step up any more, because the church wants to keep them under the thumb. Name calling of a mother senior in front of her daughter, week after week she was there, and no one steps in. Humiliation in front of other's is not from the Lord, calling people devil, is speaking your own native language, " when the devil speaks of a lie, he speaks of his own. " Sitting under such evil, affects EVERYONE. aNY WONDER, many are sick, in the church? Take the real FACT experiment, of speaking nice things, to plants, and rice, and cursing, or just about to the other group. To do this, is not wise and not Godly. First it is stealing the health of his own family, for week after week to listen to abusive language, will affect the immune system. It not only will weaken the spirit, but also the physical immune system, and many may get inflicted with diseases, just as the rice got rotten, from the daily language. This is true. I've listened to several preachers, who did the exact same thing. All their wifes were diagnosed with the exact same thing.
The sins of the fathers, will be handed down to their children.[/QUOTE]
The kingdom of God suffereth violence. bible verse. The kingdom of God is within us. bible verse. When someone is a low self esteem, the controller will want to keep them there, as that's how they were raised, in abuse, and it is picked up, by the wounds, of evil in some, to keep them in their control, The church is to bring healing, life through the Words of God, for the word is a sword and spirit, cutting between the soul and spirit. Where in life's Journeys the damages are done to the emotions, and it affects the soul,
Since this is going on in some, it is a trap, to encourage health, as some may recover from the low self esteem and leave, after realizing that Jesus never wants us to be lame, and calls us his adopted engrafted, children of the most high God. Galatians, 4:6 These places are the cults, and the abusive dishonoring of people. God values everyone. Judgement will fall heavy upon the house of disrespect of others. When they call upon me I shall not listen to their crys. bible verse.
Palsm 91:15 I have lived my life on this, That God will honor me, and hear me, and satisfy me with a long life. Call upon me in the day of trouble, I will hear thee, and answer thee, and honor thee.

 

[JaumeJ]

The elders do not step up any more, because the church wants to keep them under the thumb. Name calling of a mother senior in front of her daughter, week after week she was there, and no one steps in. Humiliation in front of other's is not from the Lord, calling people devil, is speaking your own native language, " when the devil speaks of a lie, he speaks of his own. " Sitting under such evil, affects EVERYONE. aNY WONDER, many are sick, in the church? Take the real FACT experiment, of speaking nice things, to plants, and rice, and cursing, or just about to the other group. To do this, is not wise and not Godly. First it is stealing the health of his own family, for week after week to listen to abusive language, will affect the immune system. It not only will weaken the spirit, but also the physical immune system, and many may get inflicted with diseases, just as the rice got rotten, from the daily language. This is true. I've listened to several preachers, who did the exact same thing. All their wifes were diagnosed with the exact same thing.
The sins of the fathers, will be handed down to their children.

It seems in most assemblies the elders are selected and approved, and only then to they have prayers said over them. In other words, the prayers are superfluous.

 

[JaumeJ]

These verses clearly state that we are not to have masters or assume the role of master as a child of God.
But it seems that many local churches ignore this Scripture.
Some local churches seem to have a milti-tier membership. Those who are in authority, rule the congregation, assume the role of master while the majority have little or no voice in the affairs of the local church.

Why do local church members allow this to happen?
Why do some assume thesively.y are special, anointed by God, and make themselves masters over others?

some use the meanings of master , two of them that is, interchagably.

There is master, as having a slave or servant.

There is master as a teacher.

When reading the Word many confuse these definitions and when they are to be applied. Sometimes reading in other languages helps but not always,.

Another use for the word, master, is a synonym of expert. There are probably more, but I am not looking p exten

 

[iamsoandso]

The Bible is clear that while there are to be elders (pastor/elder/bishops) in each local church with authority, *rule* or *governments*, they are not to be *masters* or *lords* over the flock.

1 PETER 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

"Taking the oversight thereof" corresponds to the word episkopos, meaning *overseer*, and translated as *bishop* in the KJV. And those who take oversight must *rule* or govern the church. But they cannot be despots, since their primary responsibility is the welfare of the souls of those in the flock.

Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. (Heb 13:7)

"...who have spoken unto you the word of God" corresponds to "feed the flock" which means the ministry of the Word (both milk & meat). Since these men (not women) are supposed to be shepherds, they are NOT TO ABUSE the flock, but lead by example, as Peter says.

This is what is in the Word, presenting the ideal, but that does not mean that there is no abuse of authority in churches. And that is why a plurality of elders is essential, and according to Scripture. Which means that is one elder is out of line, the others will set him straight and have him removed. No NT church was to have a one-man ministry.

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 1:26 is this something ongoing or future?

 

[dcontroversal]

Sheep by their very nature are dumb and will wander aimlessly....they need a shepherd....one that leads, guides, protects and teaches the flock....not a Lord over it, but an undershepherd....!!

 

[Nehemiah6]

What are your thoughts on Isaiah 1:26 is this something ongoing or future?

We need to tie this verse in with verse 21. *The faithful city* is Jerusalem (which had become a spiritual harlot), and Isaiah is speaking about a future under Christ on earth when it will be correctly be called *the city of righteousness, the faithful city*.

Jerusalem and the kingdom of Israel will be redeemed and restored after the Second Coming of Christ. So this prophecy cannot be applied to the past or the present.

ZION (JERUSALEM) SHALL BE REDEEMED AND RESTORED

Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. (Isa 52:1)

Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. (Isa 52:8,9)

The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. (Isa 2:1-5)
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-40-9/
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. (Isa 40:9-11)

Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies: And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. (Isa 1:24-27)

As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. (Isa 31:5)

And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee. (Isa 12:1-6)
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-25-6/
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. (Isa 25:6-9)

For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee. (Isa 30:19)
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-33-20/
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. (Isa 33:20,21)

For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. (Isa 66:12,13)