Matthew 24:40 Is the rapture secret?

[GaryA]

You are suggesting that the event that takes place in the "twinkling of an eye" includes only "the change?"

1Cor 15.51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So, you think the trumpet will sound, some time will pass, and then an instant change? You think the trump will be excluded from this flash?

To be honest, it sounds like the second the trumpet sounds the flash will happen. This means somehow those "alive and remaining" will join the dead in Christ as *all of them* change in an instant?

We know that Christ will return like lightning. So it will not surprise me if we are caught up to him like a bolt of lightning, and are changed in the same instant.

I don't know the basis for Paul's reference to this "flashing change?" I'll have to investigate. Thanks for pointing it out. The emphasis here does seem to be on the "change" itself, though it does seem to be precipitated by a trumpet sound associated with Christ's descent.

No - we do not know that Christ will "return like lightning"...

Matthew 24:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does all of this seem 'instantaneous'? Of course not.

However, "the change" [itself] (yes - all of them together) will be "in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52).

The before-and-after this will no-doubt take a little more time. After all, everyone will see it - including all of the wicked - so...

 

[randyk]

No - we do not know that Christ will "return like lightning"...

GaryA said: "No - we do not know that Christ will "return like lightning"..."

Matt 24.27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Luke 17.24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

How can you say that Christ will *not* return like lightning? Quite frankly, the book of Revelation depicts events surrounding Christ's Coming as replete with flashes of lightning and rumblings of thunder. Isn't this argument enough that Christ is returning "like lightning," which is, after all, quite fast?

As far as a change being like lightning, we see that the angel declaring Jesus' resurrection appeared like lightning, which is a glorious appearance...

Matt 28.3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.

And at the Transfiguration, Jesus showed what a changed appearance will look like in the glorification event...

Luke 9.29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

In OT Prophecy, coming of Messiah seems to be described as judgment that arrives like lightning. This is not just a "change" but more, a *judgment.*

Zech 9.14 Then the Lord will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign Lord will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south...

 

[sawdust]

I did not say or suggest that. I was referring to the time of the rapture - after which, the saints having been taken, the wicked are left to go through the 'Wrath of God' being poured out upon the earth.

You said it was at the Second Coming of Christ. He's not doing a fly by, He is returning to Earth to set up His Kingdom. He won't be leaving after He gets here but you have left Him with ruling unbelievers only as you have the believers taken away. The rapture and the Second Coming are two different events.

 

[ewq1938]

Christ does not come to Earth at the Rapture.

That's wrong.

The second coming begins, the dead resurrect and follow him to the clouds and the living are caught up to the clouds to meet them and Christ will descend down to the Earth to complete the second coming events like Armageddon etc.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 19 speaks of the marriage of the lamb which is immediately followed by the rider on the white horse of whom out of his mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations of which the beast and the false prophet are included among the casualties,

No they aren't part of the casualties since they are cast into the LOF ALIVE.

 

[sawdust]

No they aren't part of the casualties since they are cast into the LOF ALIVE.

You don't have to die to be a casualty of war.

 

[sawdust]

That's wrong.

The second coming begins, the dead resurrect and follow him to the clouds and the living are caught up to the clouds to meet them and Christ will descend down to the Earth to complete the second coming events like Armageddon etc.

So you think.

 

[GaryA]

GaryA said: "No - we do not know that Christ will "return like lightning"..."

Matt 24.27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Luke 17.24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

How can you say that Christ will *not* return like lightning? Quite frankly, the book of Revelation depicts events surrounding Christ's Coming as replete with flashes of lightning and rumblings of thunder. Isn't this argument enough that Christ is returning "like lightning," which is, after all, quite fast?

As far as a change being like lightning, we see that the angel declaring Jesus' resurrection appeared like lightning, which is a glorious appearance...

Matt 28.3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.

And at the Transfiguration, Jesus showed what a changed appearance will look like in the glorification event...

Luke 9.29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

In OT Prophecy, coming of Messiah seems to be described as judgment that arrives like lightning. This is not just a "change" but more, a *judgment.*

Zech 9.14 Then the Lord will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign Lord will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south...

Matthew 24:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Matthew 28:

3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

Luke 9:

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

Zechariah 9:

14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

None of these verses are describing the quickness of or the speed at which Jesus will appear.

The first two are illustrating the certainty of His appearance - like saying 'just as sure as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, Jesus is coming and will inevitably appear'.

Otherwise, you could say that He will appear in the east and then move westward...

In any case, I do not believe that it will be [near] 'instantaneous' like the time frame of a lightning strike.

Did you not read my previous post?

Does 'then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven' not seem to take some amount of time longer than the time frame of a lightning strike?

Will 'all the tribes of the earth mourn' in the time frame of a lightning strike?

Does 'they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory' not seem to take some amount of time longer than the time frame of a lightning strike?

 

[GaryA]

You said it was at the Second Coming of Christ. He's not doing a fly by, He is returning to Earth to set up His Kingdom. He won't be leaving after He gets here but you have left Him with ruling unbelievers only as you have the believers taken away. The rapture and the Second Coming are two different events.

No, they are not - the resurrection/rapture occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. The believers are with Him in the air.

"He won't be leaving after He gets here"

Exactly.

 

[ewq1938]

The first two are illustrating the certainty of His appearance - like saying 'just as sure as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, Jesus is coming and will inevitably appear'.

Otherwise, you could say that He will appear in the east and then move westward...

Like lightning does which would have been the fastest thing man in the 1st century could witness. It is most assuredly speaking about the speed of Christ's appearance in a global sense.

Teh sun moves slowly so your analogy is flawed. Lightning is used, going from the east to the west....that's in a blink of an eye.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Barnes:

In flaming fire - This is a circumstance which is not noticed in the account of his appearing in the parallel place in 1Th_4:16. The object of the apostle here seems to be to represent him as coming amidst vivid flashes of lightning. He is commonly described as coming in clouds, and to that common description there is here added the image of incessant lightnings, as if the whole heavens were illuminated with a continued blaze.

It means a flash of lightning.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G4442
????
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.
Total KJV occurrences: 74


Luke spoke of the same lightning when Christ would be revealed from heaven:"

Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.



G796
?????????
astrape?
as-trap-ay'
From G797; lightning; by analogy glare: - lightning, bright shining.
Total KJV occurrences: 9

G797
??????????
astrapto?
as-trap'-to
Probably from G792; to flash as lightning: - lighten, shine.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

 

[Psalm1]

There really is no taken/left in/with the flood - only survived/destroyed. If anything, the 8 righteous souls were taken into the ark while the wicked were left to be destroyed by the flood.

It is the same with the Second Coming of Christ - the saints are taken while the wicked are left.

I agree with you that the "wicked taken" idea is nonsense.

Of course, I believe that 'pre-trib' is nonsense (not biblical); nonetheless, you and others may certainly believe it if you wish.

While I can agree that the "far fetched theory" is certainly that - I do not believe it has any part in the 'post-trib' view. (not mine anyway)

BTW - I believe the word you meant to use was 'intact'...?

Lol
Earth's entire population never was and never will be half righteous, half wicked.
By centering Jesus analogy on earth's population destroyed, you miss the entire analogy.

You are basically saying Jesus did not know what he was talking about.

Because Jesus was telling the group of the one taken to be ready.
Those were his exact words he wasn't Telling all the people swiped way in the flood to be ready. Neither was he telling the ones better left behind to be ready.
There's no such thing as being ready to be left behind.
But since you thank you need to be ready to be left behind, what exactly are you gonna do? Put on a metal suit so they can't grab You and tattoo You with the mark of the beast?.
The post tribber rapture argument fails on that level also, because the Bible says everyone on the planet ,not written in the book of life, receives the market of the Beast. It Says, "every man woman and child receives the mark of the Beast". The ones refusing the mark die, so there is your half killed right there. About half the church is martyred ....there you go.
There is your ones killed.

You do know that your doctrine has Noah in a boat for months while Jesus is returning with the church on white horses.
your doctrine ONLY FITS if Noah is gathered postrib, and LOT STAYS IN SODOM.

REMEMBER ..the false assumption (amoung about 20 of them), that the righteous are gathered last.
And that amazingly false deal is in fact a corner stone of a theory that anyone with a Bible can debunk.

 

[Psalm1]

No, they are not - the resurrection/rapture occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. The believers are with Him in the air.

"He won't be leaving after He gets here"

Exactly.

Oh wait.
I never knew Noah and Lot were gathered post flood and post Sodom burning.

I will change my Bible into the "NPTR" VERSION. (New Post Trib Rapture Version)
Among the other verses I can now change would be the; " baby Jesus removed to egypt" verse into; "...and God knowing the evil of taking his people out of the picture, told them to stay and watch the slaughter ,a removal would be satanic")

Another obvious change would be in acts one, where I could change it into; "this same Jesus will return, but "NOT" in like manner"

So many changes!
And that last supper dialogue has gotta be changed also.
I may need some help on that one because I know you guys are way more creative at the changes.
Jesus Aint building no structures up there. And of course, we never get to heaven. We only go on the clouds and do some uturn. So I don't even know why in the world He's wasting his time building those structures in heaven.
Jesus was mistaken again.

Man...now I need Rev 19 changed. What was Jesus thinking that the wedding is in heaven????

Man...now I need Rev 14 changed.
There are no saints going to heaven mid trib.
They must be taken someplace else.
My NPTRV BIBLE demands the correction.

So many more coming.
It won't be the NPTRV very long as more and more corrections are needed.
It will soon be the "NPTRRV"

That new bible will get them satanically driven pretribbers Darby no good scum!!!

 

[Psalm1]

You don't seem to be understanding what the problem is with your argument. You're saying they can't be unbelievers that are taken because the world's population is never half and half. But whether it is unbelievers or believers taken, it is still half and half.

You also ignore the "taking" is likened to the flood taking away the unbelievers and the parable of the virgins is a comparison of contrast, not a comparison of similarity. Jesus contrasts between the wise person who watches and is ready for judgement (ie is in Christ and safe) and the idiot who lets his house get broken into and is destroyed in the process by the flood of God's wrath.

The issue is not how many are taken or left, the issue is are you ready for judgement.

Really?
Jesuscsaid in the preflood setting, which he describes in detail, that in THAT PREFLOOD setting one is taken, one is left..
Your doctrine now has the righteous left behind for the flood waters??
The Bible is engineered by the Holy Spirit. Once you changed something ,you gotta change fifty more items in your bible.
You guys got a huge mess on your hands

 

[sawdust]

Really?
Jesuscsaid in the preflood setting, which he describes in detail, that in THAT PREFLOOD setting one is taken, one is left..
Your doctrine now has the righteous left behind for the flood waters??
The Bible is engineered by the Holy Spirit. Once you changed something ,you gotta change fifty more items in your bible.
You guys got a huge mess on your hands

No He didn't. Is English not your first language? He said all who were eating, drinking and marrying were taken away by the flood. If we were to use your logic, anyone who wasn't doing those three things at the exact time of the flood would have been safe as well, but no-one was safe except for those in the Ark. They were ALL taken away, not half, not some, not a few but all who were not in the Ark.

When He speaks of the "one taken, one left" scenario He is referring to the end times, not the flood and He is not being literal and we know He is not being literal because practicalities dictate that fields don't have just two people working in them, nor is life consisted of eating, drinking and marrying only. All the unrighteous were taken in the flood and Jesus likens the end times to those days, that all the unrighteous will be taken away at the Second Coming. It is a very simple analogy. If He wanted to liken the taking of the righteous then He could have likened it to Enoch or Elijah for that is what the Rapture will be like.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

What my doctrine says is, those who are in Christ (tribulation believers) are passed over by the flood, as this is not a literal flood of water at the Second Coming but the wrath of God poured out, and He removes the wicked from the Earth so that He begins His Millennial rule on Earth with believers only.

Church age believers were taken from the Earth (the Rapture) seven years prior (as per the promise of John 14:2) and were evaluated (as per 2 Corinthians 5:10) so that our home is in heaven (as per Philippians 3:20).

What you have (as best I can tell) Christ doesn't take us to where He is but meets us where we are, our home is not in heaven but on earth and our evaluation is anyone's guess as to how that fits into the picture.

The only mess I have on my hands is the one you keep trying to pour into them but I can easily rid myself of your mess.

 

[Psalm1]

No He didn't. Is English not your first language? He said all who were eating, drinking and marrying were taken away by the flood. If we were to use your logic, anyone who wasn't doing those three things at the exact time of the flood would have been safe as well, but no-one was safe except for those in the Ark. They were ALL taken away, not half, not some, not a few but all who were not in the Ark.

When He speaks of the "one taken, one left" scenario He is referring to the end times, not the flood and He is not being literal and we know He is not being literal because practicalities dictate that fields don't have just two people working in them, nor is life consisted of eating, drinking and marrying only. All the unrighteous were taken in the flood and Jesus likens the end times to those days, that all the unrighteous will be taken away at the Second Coming. It is a very simple analogy. If He wanted to liken the taking of the righteous then He could have likened it to Enoch or Elijah for that is what the Rapture will be like.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

What my doctrine says is, those who are in Christ (tribulation believers) are passed over by the flood, as this is not a literal flood of water at the Second Coming but the wrath of God poured out, and He removes the wicked from the Earth so that He begins His Millennial rule on Earth with believers only.

Church age believers were taken from the Earth (the Rapture) seven years prior (as per the promise of John 14:2) and were evaluated (as per 2 Corinthians 5:10) so that our home is in heaven (as per Philippians 3:20).

What you have (as best I can tell) Christ doesn't take us to where He is but meets us where we are, our home is not in heaven but on earth and our evaluation is anyone's guess as to how that fits into the picture.

The only mess I have on my hands is the one you keep trying to pour into them but I can easily rid myself of your mess.

Lol
Just pretend the analogy has no gathering preflood.
Is English your first language?
TWO GATHERINGS.
NONE AFTER THE FLOOD.
THE 2 WERE PREFLOOD. (both pretrib)
YOU CAN WIGGLE ALL YOU WANT.
IT AIN'T GOING AWAY.
Your doctrine is literally making you look bad.
Your doctrine has "normal life setting"
CHANGED INTO 1/3 of the population destroyed, no commerce for believers, and believers running from cave to cave to escape the AC.
But it Gets worse for you because in the analogy of Jesus ,post trib rapture doctrine has a believer in bed with an unbelieving satanic worshipper that has the mark of the beast tattooed on him.
( two in a bed, one taken one left.)
Total fail.

All post tribber doctrine that I have encountered, completely eliminates the setting that was before the flood!!!
... and it's a no brainer.
The setting is PREFLOOD.
Normal LIFE, and commerce ,and normal daily activities

 

[Psalm1]

Sawdust QUOTE;
" Is English not your first language? He said all who were eating, drinking and marrying were taken away by the flood."

How can you totally miss something so basic.???
"ONE TAKEN...ONE LEFT BEHIND."
You completely change it to "ALL WERE TAKEN"
Then you change the analogy to; "AFTER THE FLOOD AND SODOM BURNED,NOAH AND LOT ARE REMOVED"

You guys CHANGE EVERY RAPTURE VERSE.

 

[Psalm1]

The Bible is engineered by the Holy Spirit. Once you changed something ,you gotta change fifty more items in your bible.
You guys got a huge mess on your hands

 

[Jimbone]

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Why are there so many different opinions about the rapture. Here is a warning directly from Jesus. it sounds scary but in reality it is a comforting warning:

[Luk 21:8-19, 25-27 KJV] 8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle [it] therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. ... 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This link has a pretty good study about the subject.

Sorry but from my point of veiw this is just adding your ideas TO scripture, or ADDING to His word. This is not the proper way to handle scriptue, we don't come to the scripture with an idea and "find it", we read scripture and draw from it. With all due respect, I couldn't just read His word and "draw" what you posted as your conclusion to it. You're doing it backwards.

To be painfully honest and VERY unpopular, I feel the same way about the whole "pre-trib rapture" thing as a whole. If you just read the bible without ever having heard this belief, you'd never in a thousand years draw this idea from it. I dare say that you HAVE to add the timelines, charts, rearranging of scripture, and gurus for this to been seen at all or have any legs like it has. This is by far the most deceptive belief amoungst true believers I can think of that has found such a strong foothold while it contridicts Jesus words in SO many ways, in my viewpoint.

 

[Jimbone]

Sawdust QUOTE;
" Is English not your first language? He said all who were eating, drinking and marrying were taken away by the flood."

How can you totally miss something so basic.???
"ONE TAKEN...ONE LEFT BEHIND."
You completely change it to "ALL WERE TAKEN"
Then you change the analogy to; "AFTER THE FLOOD AND SODOM BURNED,NOAH AND LOT ARE REMOVED"

You guys CHANGE EVERY RAPTURE VERSE.

Not to mention they reverse who is taken and who inherits the earth. In the times of Noah, it was the righteous who were left behind and the wicked who were taken away. Why do they flip this with no reason at all?

 

[Psalm1]

Sorry but from my point of veiw this is just adding your ideas TO scripture, or ADDING to His word. This is not the proper way to handle scriptue, we don't come to the scripture with an idea and "find it", we read scripture and draw from it. With all due respect, I couldn't just read His word and "draw" what you posted as your conclusion to it. You're doing it backwards.

To be painfully honest and VERY unpopular, I feel the same way about the whole "pre-trib rapture" thing as a whole. If you just read the bible without ever having heard this belief, you'd never in a thousand years draw this idea from it. I dare say that you HAVE to add the timelines, charts, rearranging of scripture, and gurus for this to been seen at all or have any legs like it has. This is by far the most deceptive belief amoungst true believers I can think of that has found such a strong foothold while it contridicts Jesus words in SO many ways, in my viewpoint.

All rapture verses are pretrib.
As is the Noah and lot analogy.
both "pre" ...there is zero " post" anything about the analogy.