Misunderstood

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Btw EG..I must inform you that if you are trying to take another Jab at me..You have been placed on ignore..so i cannot see your clever 'jabs' sorry to tell you ;)

lol,, Do what you wish. I just look to show what I believe and why I can;t believe other ways. If people are offended, I can't help that. Gods word cuts people to the heart. He was not worried about offending anyone, neither should be. This lets make everyone happy theology we have today is dangerous and misrepresents God

It sure would be nice if people would understand what I believe though, and not just make assumptions based on what they have been taught. this is the danger of looking at theology and not just listen to what people say. We look to what appears to be a doctrine we have been told of, and judge them on that doctrine or theology, and never fully understand what is being said.
 
St. John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jesus is telling us that believing in him , is our work.
 
Btw EG..I must inform you that if you are trying to take another Jab at me..You have been placed on ignore..so i cannot see your clever 'jabs' sorry to tell you ;)

too bad you missed out on a good post of E.G.
what we call good works is actually fruit of the Spirit. Making that distinction helps to see that Paul and James are not contradicting each other. Paul is speaking of human works/effort whereas James is referring to fruit of the Spirit.
 
Well honestly this has been an issue for over two thousand years, many churches constantly nag on each other believing they are in the right. But if we aren't willing to admit we were wrong and learn from others we will stay simple minded forever. That is why when i come to the bible discussion forum i am prepared to be wrong and admit my mistake, i come here sometimes just to learn and see what others think.
 
St. John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jesus is telling us that believing in him , is our work.

and everything else will flow from there....why?

you must be born again.

John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
 
I think what is far more important than 'redeeming reformed churches' is making sure that all those who claim to be christian are really in the faith...the word says, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith..it says..be not deceived,God is not mocked,whatever a man sows,that he shall reap..he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption..he who sows to the spirit will of the spirit reap life everlasting..Galatians 6:7-8..
We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling like Phillipians 2 says..so while no one was intentionally trying to offend any of the reformed theology adherents here, i surely hope that what the bible has to say about holiness and living for him is far more important to you than any 'trendy theology' or label or heritage you may hold onto..that's all im saying..so..hold onto your young restless reformed label if you must, but at the end of the day, you are either serving him or you are not..and you will have no excuse, your works will prove if you are truly 'elect'..no theological position that is just a mindset and a belief system that is not truly implemented in the life of that person who says he or she believes will ever save anybody..

I am sorry if I gave you the idea I'm in the biz of redeeming reformed churches. :(

And you're right, we are to work out our own salvation, and to examine ourselves.
(And the latter verse should also be taken in context. Believers shouldn't have to check every day to be sure they're saved, right?)

I don't see a mandate for examining the heart of another.
So I'd have to disagree that we ought to be 'making sure that all those who claim to be Christian are really in the faith'.

But if you know of scripture to support it, I'm open to learning. :)

And whether we like it or not, we all come to God with a belief system.
It may not have a trendy label, but it's there.
We call it doctrine, and doctrine isn't evil.
 
I am sorry if I gave you the idea I'm in the biz of redeeming reformed churches. :(

And you're right, we are to work out our own salvation, and to examine ourselves.
(And the latter verse should also be taken in context. Believers shouldn't have to check every day to be sure they're saved, right?)

I don't see a mandate for examining the heart of another.
So I'd have to disagree that we ought to be 'making sure that all those who claim to be Christian are really in the faith'.

But if you know of scripture to support it, I'm open to learning. :)

And whether we like it or not, we all come to God with a belief system.
It may not have a trendy label, but it's there.
We call it doctrine, and doctrine isn't evil.

Are you sure you are open to learning? Did Paul not say to the church at corinth to turn away the one who was in sin and in an incestuous relationship? there are many scriptures that talk about judgement starts at the church..so we have to be carefull to make sure we are who we say who we are..i say this not trying to be 'better' than you or anyone here, because i wish someone would have told me. But i had friends who because of their bad theological position thought God would always eternally secure them and their lives revealed the bad fruit of such wrong positions regarding God. Theology matters..a belief system matters..I never said it didn't..others here may avoid and run from any theological position in a vain attempt to 'keep the peace' but I never said i was against Doctrine..you must have confused me with some other folk here. If we are not as christians to be accountable and care for each other, then who else will? I am not saying I am to be a 'goat inspecter' and say i have the gift to separate the sheep from the goats! I am simply saying if i cannot tell my brother or sister to make sure they are serving God, then what on earth am i doing?! I say all this with conviction in my life because i had christian friends who at at time i was going south spiritually and for whatever reason they did not move a muscle to tell me hey, you are going the wrong direction! Come back! No..then again one of them, a calvinist told me he thought i was not a christian,(see the bad and erroneous position of a wrong theological stance and how it affects how you even treat others)

Regarding savedbygracesexibi's rant..I do not see how i could, as a 5 point calvinist if i was one, put any emphasis on living for God, I am merely taking what i have seen of calvinism and knowing that many calvinists do believe we christians are always wretched folk and hold onto eternal security too tightly aka what i like to call God's got you mentality. I would as many calvinists i met, be caught up with trying to be as worldy as possible yet still be considered christian, I would also embrace their antinomian ways(not saying all do) I most certainly would take five point calvinism to its logical conclusion by showing it in my life, by not loving others, looking down on the unsaved as reprobate filth(i know calvinists who do),call those who oppose me Goats,stupid,and sinners(ive had this happen to me) If i was a calvinist, i would not place much importance on my lifestyle and more on my election status or my self proclaimed election status.
But since Psychomom you think im talking craziness,give me some minutes to show that we as christians are to spur each other on, and if you find someone who is not living in him and he does not want to change...we are not even to talk to him, and throw him out of the church. I have no reason to make stuff up, but for your benefit and for the others, gimme a bit to look into exact verses so i am not accused of making this stuff up.

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regarding this part of your response----------------
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I am sorry if I gave you the idea I'm in the biz of redeeming reformed churches. :(

And you're right, we are to work out our own salvation, and to examine ourselves.
(And the latter verse should also be taken in context. Believers shouldn't have to check every day to be sure they're saved, right?)
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I think we should be checking every day..why would we not? Do you not want to make sure that everyday you are walking with God, and not take it for granted? And make sure that your heart is not deceiving you with a sinfull mindset? I surely wish i would have as a younger christian, but i also was going to a church that only appealed to the Love of God and Grace,which is good..yes, amen..there is grace and love but nobody ever told me how to respond to this grace and love with an application of Christian right living(of course enabled by God's spirit..if i was doing this on my own, well good luck with that Raul, tell me how it works out for you!) I can only go by own experience..i do not see i as checking every day that you are 'saved' persee, but since i do not hold onto eternal security of the P in Tulip or Tulip at all for that matter,and my view of eternal security is different..i call it, The Believer's security, so i do as of late check myself and my heart,and pray..God make me more holy, by your spirit..I want to be pleasing to you,and I want to be that beakon of Light that others see and point to as the one that showed them Christ. So I must graciously disagree, we should be living this 24/7, we cannot be skipping a day for the sake of 'grace' or worrying that we may be legalistic..this is not legalism. And this is from one who used to worry about being religious about not being religious..I was not living for God as I should have, but no one ever showed me either that this was possible, so many years later..I discovered a sweet spanish church that implements this, and does not tell me that i cannot keep my responsibility, as i have heard one Grace preacher say in a sermon here locally about a year ago..so, Now I finally know I can live a spirit Lead Holy Life.
 
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I would start with Galatians 6:1..and go from there..
also Jude 23 says to strive to save others,(Amp)snatching them out of the fire!(sounds like serious business, almost as if you are saving their lives)
I want to merely encourage you and other 5 point calvinists to be not comfortable in your own 'election' make sure you are who you say you are, and also seek to tell the whole world about Jesus, and if that means you got to abandon some of your Tulip, the great commission is far more important than Tulip. Btw..here is more.
1 corinthians 5:1-8..im sure its in your Esv too(hint hint)
I will find some more..but there goes several..and even matthew 7:13-27..This is serious stuff..I know many christians would rather be left alone to do their own thing, but we as the body cannot do this, so if this is what you are insisting upon Psychomom..I will wholeheartedly disagree, and move in the opposite spirit..after all, I will answer to God one day..so will the rest of us. If that means some will 'misunderstand' me that is fine. I was really hoping Savedbygraceexibi would have replied by now as i am interested to hear what he has to say.
 
wow thanks for sharing insights/wisdom . Im so blessed reading all of your post. Thanks a lot brothers and sisiters. Good work is a product of internal change. Internal change is a product of salvation :)
 
Raul, I don't trust myself to respond just now.
(nasty thing, the flesh)


I'd like to re-read your posts a few times, and pray about it. :)

If the Lord so wills it, I'll be back.
Thx for your patience,
ellie
 
oh and one more for good measure..

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?NIV 1 peter 4:17

so..to say we should just simply 'mind our own business' and not look at another brother or sister who is maybe living wrong or going the wrong way, that is irresponsible. I have been ousted from one church many years ago for speaking about the sin of one single elder in the church who chose to have their significant other live with them(not married to them) I was encouraged to sweep it under the rug and 'eer on the side of grace' I refused to, and i was told i am no longer a part of that church..this church month's later closed its doors and i am convinced they were a cult and not a true church. So yes, even if that means we get thrown out of our local church by the Pastor, we are to do what God tells us to do..not stand for sin, especially in the church and church leadership.
 
oh and one more for good measure..

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?NIV 1 peter 4:17

so..to say we should just simply 'mind our own business' and not look at another brother or sister who is maybe living wrong or going the wrong way, that is irresponsible. I have been ousted from one church many years ago for speaking about the sin of one single elder in the church who chose to have their significant other live with them(not married to them) I was encouraged to sweep it under the rug and 'eer on the side of grace' I refused to, and i was told i am no longer a part of that church..this church month's later closed its doors and i am convinced they were a cult and not a true church. So yes, even if that means we get thrown out of our local church by the Pastor, we are to do what God tells us to do..not stand for sin, especially in the church and church leadership.

I find it absolutely amazing you are so sure your right that you are free to condemn others of there belief. but if someone confronts you or questions yours, it is not alright,, Is this a do as I say not as I do belief??

Actions speak louder than words.. when you say we should do this, but are unable to recieve what as you say scripture says we should do. then your words mean nothing
 
Raul, I don't trust myself to respond just now.
(nasty thing, the flesh)

I'd like to re-read your posts a few times, and pray about it. :)

If the Lord so wills it, I'll be back.
Thx for your patience,
ellie

I believe Ellie it would be the Lord's will for you to encourage others in the Local church to live for God,and if your brother or sister is in error, especially if you have built a relationship with them, why not tell them!? Thats all im saying..i wish somebody would have taken the concern to tell me when I was slipping into error..i did not have that even when I sought accountability with many pleas and tears. And those same ones i asked made excuses as to why they were silent and irresponsible brethren(my assumption is they were hoping id join their church and then and only then would they be accountable to me) or worse off, remained silent and looked the other way.
But having said that, this is merely an encouragement to not look the other way..if this provoked a temptation for you to respond in the flesh, i pray that you see what i say is not a jab at you or anyone, but merely an admonition out of a conviction and out of personal experience..wishing I myself had this in my life in the past..i couldn't find it even when i literally begged for accountability..now years later, i found christians that are available,and bold enough to address what needs to be addressed. That is all neighbor.
 
I believe Ellie it would be the Lord's will for you to encourage others in the Local church to live for God,and if your brother or sister is in error, especially if you have built a relationship with them, why not tell them!? Thats all im saying..i wish somebody would have taken the concern to tell me when I was slipping into error..i did not have that even when I sought accountability with many pleas and tears. And those same ones i asked made excuses as to why they were silent and irresponsible brethren(my assumption is they were hoping id join their church and then and only then would they be accountable to me) or worse off, remained silent and looked the other way.
But having said that, this is merely an encouragement to not look the other way..if this provoked a temptation for you to respond in the flesh, i pray that you see what i say is not a jab at you or anyone, but merely an admonition out of a conviction and out of personal experience..wishing I myself had this in my life in the past..i couldn't find it even when i literally begged for accountability..now years later, i found christians that are available,and bold enough to address what needs to be addressed. That is all neighbor.

funny thing is i do not know anyone who would not do this, calvanist or not
 
wow thanks for sharing insights/wisdom . Im so blessed reading all of your post. Thanks a lot brothers and sisiters. Good work is a product of internal change. Internal change is a product of salvation :)

And if we are in the church,and love God and love the Church, how could we just sit and watch a brother or sister be in error or walk a path that leads to destruction?! If we truly love God,and our brother or sister in the faith, then let us be honest and not disingenuous..let's truly love them in deed and not in word only..let's care for them..speak the truth to them even if it offends them or gets them riled up to the point that they must bow out and get back to you on a response to what you say..
Even if it means they break fellowship with you, you answer to God..I do not want another's blood on my hands and they standing before God condemned by the path they took then turn to me and say, 'Why didn't you tell me?'
This is some serious stuff folks..let's not play games with God anymore and get real with ourselves and others..
 
Rauleeoe,
Have you read any of the Puritan divines? They were very Calvinistic and were quite godly in their lifestyle. Leland Ryken. has a good book on the subject. called Worldly Saints.
The problem here is the term 'Calvinist' as it encompasses so much that neither Calvin or the Westminster or the Belgic Confessions taught.
I think it's best to steer clear of the general terms 'Calvinist', 'Lutheran ', Arminian' etc. and rather specifically pick out a certain teaching and show where it falls short or is right on.
 
Rauleeoe,
Have you read any of the Puritan divines? They were very Calvinistic and were quite godly in their lifestyle. Leland Ryken. has a good book on the subject. called Worldly Saints.
The problem here is the term 'Calvinist' as it encompasses so much that neither Calvin or the Westminster or the Belgic Confessions taught.
I think it's best to steer clear of the general terms 'Calvinist', 'Lutheran ', Arminian' etc. and rather specifically pick out a certain teaching and show where it falls short or is right on.

Oh and i have shown where i disagree with scripture pointing out as well..
as far as puritans..who lives that way amongst the calvinist persuation anymore? few..not saying none do..but the puritan emphasis is long gone..
many have thrown their puritan roots out for a more intellctual 'new calvinism', a young restless and reformed way as seen being bought hook,line and sinker by many youth and young christians..

so, no..puritinism ceases to exist anymore..at least from the mindset of the calvinists that I have met and spoken to. Maybe in your knick of the woods it is still seen..not here though, that is all i can say.
 
Oh and i have shown where i disagree with scripture pointing out as well..
as far as puritans..who lives that way amongst the calvinist persuation anymore? few..not saying none do..but the puritan emphasis is long gone..
many have thrown their puritan roots out for a more intellctual 'new calvinism', a young restless and reformed way as seen being bought hook,line and sinker by many youth and young christians..

so, no..puritanism ceases to exist anymore..at least from the mindset of the calvinists that I have met and spoken to. Maybe in your knick of the woods it is still seen..not here though, that is all i can say.

well then, perhaps it isn't a. Calvinist problem as much as a people problem? There are problems all across the denominational lines of throwing out their foundations just as non denoms tend to throw out their original teachings for a culturally tailored bible approach.
 
I think it is often misunderstood that those of the Reformed community don't preach holiness or repentance. On the contrary i beleive those who are sincere would agree with James that faith without work is dead.i think the biggest confusion is that we dont preach that works result in salvation rather they are a result of salvation.

I completely agree with u man.U speaking very well and true.
Why should we work if we r saved?Why would anyone mention any works if our souls are saved?If we are saved,then we won devil.We are in Christ,saved.Devil cannot harm us and upset by evil thoughts.
Those who denie works and faith,they do a favor to demons and demons talk trough them.They twist Bible!
 
.i wish somebody would have taken the concern to tell me when I was slipping into error..i did not have that even when I sought accountability with many pleas and tears. And those same ones i asked made excuses as to why they were silent and irresponsible brethren(my assumption is they were hoping id join their church and then and only then would they be accountable to me) or worse off, remained silent and looked the other way.
what if i believe you are slipping into error now?
would you listen?