Money, Coffee, and Selfish Christians

[MsSpratt]

I happen to love coffee. I think I will go to my local Dunkin' Donuts and order a double espresso and an apple fritter. America runs on Dunkin'.

coffee is a sin? that needed a half a page to talk about?
seems like there a lots of churches i wouldn't want to go to. the no coffee ones for starters. this is silly.

 

[pickles]

I once saw Christian coffee shop.
It was called Holy Grounds!
They served eternal life.

God bless
pickles

 

[ww_21]

Yet another reason as to why I refuse to drink coffee.

 

[Allin]

Yeah I have thought this too. How amazing would it be if those churches went through the school and anointed and prayed over it for the sake of the students throughout the week!

That would be nice. Only issue is the responsibility when people come to the Lord. It's one thing to bring them there, but what do you do with them once they come to the Lord? The responsibility aspect is what sometimes makes evangelism a bad idea.

 

[Allin]

You may want to hang out with a different crowd. Coffee kept me alert and awake while I studied the bible late nights (which, is when I could without being disturbed). No one that I know of ever got drunk drinking coffee. As I said, you are hanging out with the wrong crowd, if you have observed this. Now that I think of it, people that insist on staying "hydrated" by constantly drinking bottled water, turn into zombies - they cannot stop drinking water, nor can they stop staring at their smartphones.

I drink beer, and coffee, and I do not stare at smartphones, for I do not possess one, nor do I wish to.
God Himself said: My children are sottish. Sottish means stupid. Stupid is as stupid does, regardless of what the stupid ingests.

I'll probably be staring at my smartphone sometime today but don't drink coffee. Coffee isn't the issue; the self-centered nature is, and the way coffee can easily provoke it to take over when Christians gather together to 'worship' is the topic at hand (don't forget the way money surfaces or reveals the same self-centered nature).

 

[Allin]

Regarding the OP:

First, the Bible agrees with you about money. This is why we are told to render unto Caeser what is Caeser's. Everything else belongs to Yah. Make your rendering unto him, and not money. Does it change people? Yes, it does. It becomes why we do what we do, and becomes a sieve where enough is never enough.

My husband is not a believer. At the time we met, I was listening to a lot of sermons given by the Swaggarts. My husband said, "How much do you believe your teachers when they obviously invest so much of their earnings in their own best interest?" I admit, I hadn't thought of it that way. Then my eyes were opened. These preachers wearing $2K suits and driving new BMW's are not doing the works of my god. Why is not every penny they get going back into preaching the word? Why aren't they shopping at Wal-Mart, like the people donating, instead of wearing custom made dresses and carrying designer purses? Shouldn't they be putting every penny into feeding the poor and producing free materials to share with the world? That is not what they do, and because of that, I turned away from them and their teachings.

As a contrast, I grew up in the Salvation Army. The officers live in well-repaired but not fancy houses, they drive church vans and economy vehicles. They put every penny they can back into their ministry, and they actively help others every day. Without the lure of a big money cash out for the works they do, these humble folks are providing both a hand and a heart to the people of the world. Which one reflects Messiah?

As for the coffee, I think you're looking for a demon behind every blade of grass, frankly. Each individual responds to it differently. Some people don't drink it at all, even at meetings they relax at. How much more freely will the thoughts flow and the people fellowship if they feel comfortable? I am personally trying to break the habit, but that's about my personal walk of faith, and nothing to do with judging others for having a cup of joe and settling back. I've seen the behavior you describe when food was served, when sweets were served, when tea was served, when alcohol was served, or even when someone got up to go to the bathroom. Who's to judge what is "too comfortable?" You? Not me.

Sin is sin. If people are being sinful and not focused on the meeting (if not focusing on the meeting is indeed sin,) that's about their sin and not about the coffee. If people are being "too comfortable" and slipping into gossip and talk of babies and laundry, then that's a leadership fail and not a coffee fail.

The Puritans and the early Americans used to have this idea that everyone must come into the meeting and be stern and serious, sit on wooden, uncomfortable benches and listen to hours of preaching. Was that better? Would you prefer that sort of Bible study? I'm pretty sure that's not how Paul did it, though I wasn't there to witness.

You seem awfully focused on the behaviors of others. It's obvious you have spent a great deal of time coming to this place of judgement. I hope your time and effort is not a rabbit trail that Satan gave to you so that you would spend your time writing about the behavior of other people instead of praising your god and producing works that bear fruit. Shalom.

People who see no reason for progress in life tend to see everything as 'just fine'; but people who are after progress are rarely satisfied until progress is made. That's just the way it is.

 

[Allin]

Allin,

our heart go out to you, the emotions that you are dealing with
create such powerful urgings and warring that can leave us
exhausted and grieve our Spirits so much.

The LORD puts us through the wringer of emotional struggles and pains
that we may be purged/refined and bring forth fruits that we never dreamed
were possible.
and of course, we know for sure that could only be possible through His most
powerful, wonderous, Holy Love.
He teaches us how to understand the emotional struggles that are going on inside
of our brothers and sisters hearts and minds,
and when we acknowledge and experience their pain and sufferings,
mixed together with GOD'S SPIRIT of LOVE, then we will bring forth
such a deeper, more compassionate Christian walk and witness for others
accompanied with a new, profound, peaceful heart.

sincerely,
oldthennew

Thanks. I guess we can't be happy all the time. My neighbor affects me; I think that's just being a normal human being. Maybe even Christian.

 

[Allin]

and btw...coffee is kind of our thing and the Holy Spirit is moving mightily in our family.

Believe me, coffee doesn't stop the Spirit from moving; people do, and sometimes, coffee helps people do it!

 

[Allin]

I only had 3 cups of coffee in my life, when I started working in an office every mornng, because it was free. I noticed it had a greater affect on me than many of the drugs I was using, including alcohol, so I stopped. Eventually I gave up street drugs, and God delivered me from alcohol when I got saved.

Imagine my surprise as a brand new Christian when I found Christian addicts imbibing coffee night and day!!

I don't think people see the real effect coffee has on them. My mom was a severe coffee addict, also started when she worked in an office. She got to the point in her 40's where she was having heart problems and the doctor told her to quit drinking 40 cups of coffee a day. She did and went into severe withdrawal for a week, and then was depressed for months afterward. She said the world turned grey, and she could not get out of bed. I do have to commend her that after that she never drank more than a cup a day.

So yes, coffee is a serious addiction.

But as for pastors getting paid, I have seen nothing but godliness in my pastors. Maybe you are in the wrong church? A pastor has to earn a living, and even a small church is a full time job. I do my chaplaincy and do not get paid, because I have my own source of income. But I don't know how you expect those in the ministry to live if they are not paid. I have so many friends in the ministry from Seminary, and being bivocational is a very hard route to go.

Perhaps you should try visiting the sick, conducting funerals and weddings, counsel people for free and find time for sermons, family etc., before you criticize!

I would hate to be a pastor according to our modern way, and I wouldn't be in a hurry to be a pastor according to the Biblical way. So, I think I'm free to criticize from place on the fence

 

[wolfaith2014]

For eighteen years I worked for a church and every week we had a, 'staff team meeting,' which involved clergy, lay pastors, ancillary staff, interns, youth worker and administrative staff. Each week I would set up the room and try to get the small chairs to fit in with the sofas and get the space for the worship leader sorted, then I would open windows because it can get hot with twenty bodies in the room, knowing that at least one person would feel a draft and shut them again. Then sat down I would wait for the hordes to arrive, they would come in bit by bit, all with coffee, some with Starbucks, Costa etc, a few mad ones with those thermas flask cups, their own special brew of coffee, were they had ground their own beans at home. First fifteen minutes used to be a, 'bun fight,' of comment, gossip, networking, the occasional whinge and often somebody giving me verbal over something I failed to do on Sunday. Then Lent would hit and they all gave it up and got cranky and squiffy, headaches and detoxification.

 

[Allin]

Good grief. What a silly thread. Pastors etc. should be paid. Coffee can be a problem but it's not evil. I don't drink it very often. Also, eating after church as a group has completely the opposite effect to what you've described. We come together and really get to know each other better. We have light discussions and deep faith discussions. Later, introduce the coffee, tea, hot chocolate - whatever, and these conversations still continue. I think it's more about the company you keep than serving food after church. I believe food and fellowship go hand-in-hand. Allin, you sometimes say some good things but here you just come across as critical of everything and everyone. Not cool. Yes, of course money and coffee can be a problem but I think some of your observations are rather odd and not at all what I've observed.

If we all talked only about positive things, we could never really learn much. That may sound odd, but you would have to take a break from 'positive thinking' for a while if you wanted to look into it. I've been around 'the right crowd' many times, and they're too positive to ever grow up. They rarely ever mature past diapers, because they refuse to leave the safety of the crib. When you experience negative things, you can acknowledge them or deny them and say, "Man, let's just think positive." That's too easy; progress requires all the above, not just the positive or the negative.

 

[Allin]

coffee is a sin? that needed a half a page to talk about?
seems like there a lots of churches i wouldn't want to go to. the no coffee ones for starters. this is silly.

It's so fun to talk to people who haven't yet become Christians, because there's never a need to explain anything. Coffee isn't a sin; it encourages the sin nature in many Christians as so many other things do. If you employ your thinking for a little while, you would at least acknowledge that you won't ever really know a thing when your bias is in the way. I don't like coffee, but I'm not biased against it. I have, however, noticed the effect that it has on many Christians (and many people).

 

[Allin]

I once saw Christian coffee shop.
It was called Holy Grounds!
They served eternal life.

God bless
pickles

You gave me a belly laugh. Outstanding. Coffee isn't evil, but God has His competitors. In a society full of self-centered people looking for another excuse to serve their flesh, is it strange to think that people often grab for coffee because it feeds their flesh and not their spirit. Done laughing now. It was short-lived. But wow, Pickles, that was funny: "They served eternal life." It's not a disdaining laugh, but it is not manufactured either!

 

[Allin]

Yet another reason as to why I refuse to drink coffee.

No need to be scared of coffee. Beer doesn't exactly draw me close to the Lord; however, I am pretty well aware when something is stroking and encouraging my flesh and when something/someone is moving me towards the Lord.

 

[Allin]

For eighteen years I worked for a church and every week we had a, 'staff team meeting,' which involved clergy, lay pastors, ancillary staff, interns, youth worker and administrative staff. Each week I would set up the room and try to get the small chairs to fit in with the sofas and get the space for the worship leader sorted, then I would open windows because it can get hot with twenty bodies in the room, knowing that at least one person would feel a draft and shut them again. Then sat down I would wait for the hordes to arrive, they would come in bit by bit, all with coffee, some with Starbucks, Costa etc, a few mad ones with those thermas flask cups, their own special brew of coffee, were they had ground their own beans at home. First fifteen minutes used to be a, 'bun fight,' of comment, gossip, networking, the occasional whinge and often somebody giving me verbal over something I failed to do on Sunday. Then Lent would hit and they all gave it up and got cranky and squiffy, headaches and detoxification.

Reminds me of when I used to go to a Vineyard church: the attitude was one of a country club basically where people would come in just to socialize and haw haw like greedy rich men. It was a complete travesty to what a human being is supposed to look like. When the service and worship started, they went from gossip and showing off to trying to appear spiritual. Whether it was all about them or "all about You, Jesus", so many people just wanted to be the center of attention so that it was basically 'all about them'. Flip-flops, shorts, etc. There was no sign of reverence or honesty (that's why youth groups and young people often lead these kinds of Starbucks churches either from the pulpit or/and as the heart or pulse of the church), no attitude that this was actually about doing something that isn't for 'me, myself, I, my, and mine'; everything these people did seemed to revolve around only them. It was about other people watching and seeing them; they basically came to church to be seen, because they learned from their parents, siblings, friends, and social classes how to act. When coffee was added to the mix (Starbucks and Caribou Coffee were often already running through their veins), you could forget that the atmosphere would ever become anything more than 'a mature version' of people smoking weed where it's time to just chill and relax and 'forget all your cares'. In addressing coffee's ability to show the skeletons in a Christian's closet (i.e. the things they'd rather not have other Christians acknowledge), I know I'm touching the apple of some people's eyes (and one of the idols of their lives); but authentic and plastic are not too hard to distinguish for even little children (though they care less and less as they grow up and realize you have to be fake to fit into much of society). Coffee definitely has a physiological effect on people; it's hard for anyone to disprove that. But I'm here to say that it is also able to affect people's character too, not actually changing their character but surfacing a striking contrast between their character and <their often feigned> godliness.

 

[Sirk]

Reminds me of when I used to go to a Vineyard church: the attitude was one of a country club basically where people would come in just to socialize and haw haw like greedy rich men. It was a complete travesty to what a human being is supposed to look like. When the service and worship started, they went from gossip and showing off to trying to appear spiritual. Whether it was all about them or "all about You, Jesus", so many people just wanted to be the center of attention so that it was basically 'all about them'. Flip-flops, shorts, etc. There was no sign of reverence or honesty (that's why youth groups and young people often lead these kinds of Starbucks churches either from the pulpit or/and as the heart or pulse of the church), no attitude that this was actually about doing something that isn't for 'me, myself, I, my, and mine'; everything these people did seemed to revolve around only them. It was about other people watching and seeing them; they basically came to church to be seen, because they learned from their parents, siblings, friends, and social classes how to act. When coffee was added to the mix (Starbucks and Caribou Coffee were often already running through their veins), you could forget that the atmosphere would ever become anything more than 'a mature version' of people smoking weed where it's time to just chill and relax and 'forget all your cares'. In addressing coffee's ability to show the skeletons in a Christian's closet (i.e. the things they'd rather not have other Christians acknowledge), I know I'm touching the apple of some people's eyes (and one of the idols of their lives); but authentic and plastic are not too hard to distinguish for even little children (though they care less and less as they grow up and realize you have to be fake to fit into much of society). Coffee definitely has a physiological effect on people; it's hard for anyone to disprove that. But I'm here to say that it is also able to affect people's character too, not actually changing their character but surfacing a striking contrast between their character and <their often feigned> godliness.

I really do think you are hitting some truth here. I play guitar on our worship team and ever since I was a wee lad I've wanted to be a rock star. Sometimes it is difficult for me to be in authentic worship to Christ but I am getting better cuz I recognize it and am prayerful about it. I want less of me and more of Jesus and I want my pores to seethe that.

 

[SparkleEyes]

OH my ---- I think my post will get lost in the fray, but IMO, the OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Coffee and paid church workers aren't the problems that she/he is making them out to be. Money and coffee aren't the problem, it is the heart behind those who use money and drink coffee. Heck, using the OP's logic, you could say that drinking water or breathing air causes people to sin. People sin because they are weak (me included). Yes, money CAN be a powerful corrupter, but a well run church or organization is going to have checks and balances in place to make sure money isn't used in ways that aren't honorable to God.

And maybe they need to have a coffee monitor to make sure the parishners don't sin while drinking coffee after the service or at church events..... Sorry, kind of snarky of me.

 

[Allin]

I really do think you are hitting some truth here. I play guitar on our worship team and ever since I was a wee lad I've wanted to be a rock star. Sometimes it is difficult for me to be in authentic worship to Christ but I am getting better cuz I recognize it and am prayerful about it. I want less of me and more of Jesus and I want my pores to seethe that.

It's refreshing to see your honesty. Much of what I'm presenting is actually logical; but most people don't think at all, so it sounds either stupid or like another person trying to be a star, hotshot, or know-it-all (aren't there lots of them out there; 'everybody wants to be somebody', but that's not me). I knew a guy who wanted to be a rock star; he didn't make it, so as a Christian, he tried to hijack (or be in control) of worship in a church: his subconscious, if not also conscious, need for groupies (his need to be worshiped as a rock star) has not changed or been renewed or 'crucified', therefore (lol), he has the same need/desire and is using it in a different venue. I think it is wise for worship leaders to rotate-- to never have just one or two but several. I have not seen a church yet (of course, I haven't seen any church) where one person leads worship and isn't worshiped themselves in some way. I hate to bring it up, but Hillsong is a great example of this. So many Christian singers and worshipers start loving and focusing on God... then they are put up on a pedestal unwittingly, and before they know it, the people are worshiping them. If lucifer fell because of this (he led worship and 'was beautiful'), it takes only non-thinking minds to not see that getting off track is almost imminent for anyone (not just worship leaders but pastors and others also) who has an ongoing spotlight in front of or above people. Being the center of attention rarely makes people more human; I'm surprised to see the change in some Hollywood actors. A worship leader who is always having to lead has to perform (i.e. produce). We are a society that worships people who produce (we do this automatically and are rarely aware of it) which is why there are cult leaders and people who follow pastors and ministers, etc. Worship leaders, needing to produce for the people can easily begin leaving the path of actually 'worshiping upwards' (actually worshiping God and letting the people follow) rather than 'outwards' (leading the people to worship God).

Regarding the last thing I said, I noted a passage about God's choice of David (as a worship leader and king-- one who stood before and over the people) and how wise it was. Here's the passage:

"He also chose David His servant, and took him from the sheepfolds;from following the ewes that had young He brought him, to shepherd (lead) Jacob His people, and Israel His inheritance" (Ps. 78:70-71).

This is really a tender picture of the kind of leader God prefers (it's not what He chooses all the time, but it's definitely what He prefers):

1. He chose David: This is pre-conception and birth.

2. He took him from the sheepfolds: This is separation from his brothers and family.

3. He brought him: This is officially entering his call (to kingship).

It says, "He took him... from following ewes that had young, He brought him, to shepherd." A shepherd (and any parent), while leading the flock is actually following it. Following here means you minister to or lead them according to their needs (which is why it specifies that David followed ewes that had young: the ewes who had young had to nurse them which slowed down the entire flock; the shepherd would acquiesce, like any good shepherd, to this need). From following (having to lead the sheep the way they needed to be led), God brought David to shepherd (leading the sheep/Israel the way God wanted them to be led). Worship leaders are basically expected to follow the people (lead them to worship); there would be greater effect if worship leaders just followed God and let the people follow them (which is what God sees as real leadership). The more you are able to lead the people by being led by the Lord (I know the general structure doesn't really allow for this because the Lord is likely to suddenly take right over if this happens long/often enough), the more He will emanate from you (or 'your pores will seethe that').

 

[Allin]

OH my ---- I think my post will get lost in the fray, but IMO, the OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Coffee and paid church workers aren't the problems that she/he is making them out to be. Money and coffee aren't the problem, it is the heart behind those who use money and drink coffee. Heck, using the OP's logic, you could say that drinking water or breathing air causes people to sin. People sin because they are weak (me included). Yes, money CAN be a powerful corrupter, but a well run church or organization is going to have checks and balances in place to make sure money isn't used in ways that aren't honorable to God.

And maybe they need to have a coffee monitor to make sure the parishners don't sin while drinking coffee after the service or at church events..... Sorry, kind of snarky of me.

I'd say we better put a coffee monitor in all churches at the entrance. If your coffee intake is past a certain level, you can't come in the church since you'll be more liable to sin than those with less or no intake. Those who have no intake at all get to sit up front, and those whose intake isn't past the 'corruption level' have to stand outside and listen to everything via loudspeakers... while drinking their coffee of course. Such a law would get coffee drinkers to think twice before drinking and churching.

 

[Sirk]

It's refreshing to see your honesty. Much of what I'm presenting is actually logical; but most people don't think at all, so it sounds either stupid or like another person trying to be a star, hotshot, or know-it-all (aren't there lots of them out there; 'everybody wants to be somebody', but that's not me). I knew a guy who wanted to be a rock star; he didn't make it, so as a Christian, he tried to hijack (or be in control) of worship in a church: his subconscious, if not also conscious, need for groupies (his need to be worshiped as a rock star) has not changed or been renewed or 'crucified', therefore (lol), he has the same need/desire and is using it in a different venue. I think it is wise for worship leaders to rotate-- to never have just one or two but several. I have not seen a church yet (of course, I haven't seen any church) where one person leads worship and isn't worshiped themselves in some way. I hate to bring it up, but Hillsong is a great example of this. So many Christian singers and worshipers start loving and focusing on God... then they are put up on a pedestal unwittingly, and before they know it, the people are worshiping them. If lucifer fell because of this (he led worship and 'was beautiful'), it takes only non-thinking minds to not see that getting off track is almost imminent for anyone (not just worship leaders but pastors and others also) who has an ongoing spotlight in front of or above people. Being the center of attention rarely makes people more human; I'm surprised to see the change in some Hollywood actors. A worship leader who is always having to lead has to perform (i.e. produce). We are a society that worships people who produce (we do this automatically and are rarely aware of it) which is why there are cult leaders and people who follow pastors and ministers, etc. Worship leaders, needing to produce for the people can easily begin leaving the path of actually 'worshiping upwards' (actually worshiping God and letting the people follow) rather than 'outwards' (leading the people to worship God).

Regarding the last thing I said, I noted a passage about God's choice of David (as a worship leader and king-- one who stood before and over the people) and how wise it was. Here's the passage:

"He also chose David His servant, and took him from the sheepfolds;from following the ewes that had young He brought him, to shepherd (lead) Jacob His people, and Israel His inheritance" (Ps. 78:70-71).

This is really a tender picture of the kind of leader God prefers (it's not what He chooses all the time, but it's definitely what He prefers):

1. He chose David: This is pre-conception and birth.

2. He took him from the sheepfolds: This is separation from his brothers and family.

3. He brought him: This is officially entering his call (to kingship).

It says, "He took him... from following ewes that had young, He brought him, to shepherd." A shepherd (and any parent), while leading the flock is actually following it. Following here means you minister to or lead them according to their needs (which is why it specifies that David followed ewes that had young: the ewes who had young had to nurse them which slowed down the entire flock; the shepherd would acquiesce, like any good shepherd, to this need). From following (having to lead the sheep the way they needed to be led), God brought David to shepherd (leading the sheep/Israel the way God wanted them to be led). Worship leaders are basically expected to follow the people (lead them to worship); there would be greater effect if worship leaders just followed God and let the people follow them (which is what God sees as real leadership). The more you are able to lead the people by being led by the Lord (I know the general structure doesn't really allow for this because the Lord is likely to suddenly take right over if this happens long/often enough), the more He will emanate from you (or 'your pores will seethe that').

I think we get comfortable in our roles and the circles that we run in and pride creeps back in without us even knowing it........and pretty soon we aren't following Jesus anymore. It's easy for entrenched Christians to become like the Pharisees