More about Israel.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Zionism is not just a Jewish or dispensationalist belief, it was part of the Apostles belief as well, because they were Jewish

This is just ridiculous. You're attempting to make it mean whatever you want. No, the apostles weren't zionists because the land was not at all important to them. That is the essence of zionism, ie, that Jews are entitled to the land. They are not. End of story.

 

[Churchgoer]

This is just ridiculous. You're attempting to make it mean whatever you want. No, the apostles weren't zionists because the land was not at all important to them. That is the essence of zionism, ie, that Jews are entitled to the land. They are not. End of story.

Agree, people can't just say things that have no fact at all.
Zionism only started about over 150 years ago, a political movement. Please research on this.

Before ww2, Jewish people were very happy living all over the world. Especially Germany. Go look at the history of Germany in 1920s, before ww2.

Back in Babylon time, jews were very happy in Persia, people can read Esther, people as modicai didn't even want to go back to home country.

What people talking about Jewish people always want to go back, where is that fact? There are many Jewish people in USA, they are very happy staying in USA.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus refuse to set up an earthly kingdom, because that would be the golden calf all over again.

Unbelievers want an earthly nation because they don't want to be ruled by God.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 1 Samuel 8:4-5​

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 8:7​

 

[Aaron56]

In a religious context, the term "gentile" (derived from the Latin gentiles) translates to "of or relating to a nation or clan" and is primarily used to refer to anyone who is not Jewish. Because the vast majority of Palestinians are not Jewish—the population is predominantly Sunni Muslim, along with a significant minority of Christians—they are considered gentiles in Jewish religious law

Did you mean to reply to someone else?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Do we not want Jesus to return? He will when Jews in Jerusalem welcome Him back.

What is your scriptural basis for this claim? Jesus will return when the 7th trumpet sounds, which happens right after the fullness of the gentiles has completed the temple of God. It has nothing to do with who's in Jerusalem.

 

[Thaddeus]

I was a part of a dispensational belief system for several years I think I know what I'm talking about and to the point the reason that I raise the issue is because people who for whatever reason decide to slam dispensationalism don't obviously understand what it's about

9 Commandments were the only things carried over from the Old Testament Mosaic law there was no keep the Sabbath law brought forward however as a Christian you're really only under one commandment which is love God and love thy neighbor

Don't confuse the Mosaic law with the law of Liberty that we have in Christ we have at best two commands because they fulfill the requirements of the Mosaic law and no longer need the Mosaic law itself

I can only go by the dispensationalist site I was on. Strangely, they did have much in common with a core belief, people have on this website who are attacking them. No justification of obeying the law.
I would agree, nine commandments are the only thing carried over from the old law as you put it. Though most christians I know differentiate between the mosaic law and the ten commandments.
I disagreed with dispensationalists. The nine commandments are now written in the mind and placed on the hearts of believers under the new covenant. Dispensationalists do not agree the covenant mentioned in Heb10:15-18 is for gentiles today, only Israelites in the future. I agree with you, the nine commands, and all else are fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbour.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

God made no unconditional covenants with Israel. They were all based on obeying his voice.

 

[Jon777]

They have not possessed the entire promised land from then till now. It says never to be uprooted again. The full land has not been possessed for the full amount of time.

I suppose you are referring to this verse:

"The whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be sacred to the LORD. It shall not be uprooted or overthrown any more for ever.” (Jer 31:40, RSV)
"And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever." (Jer 31:40, KJV)

From John Trapp the Puritan (1601-1669) commentary:
"It shall not be plucked up nor thrown down any more for ever. — This cannot be applied to the earthly Jerusalem, which was plucked up and thrown down by the Romans once and again; but especially by Aelius Hadrian the emperor, who laid the whole country waste almost, drove the Jews utterly out of it, set a sow of white marble over the chief gate of Jerusalem in reproach of their religion, and called the city by his own name, Aelia, commanding the Jews not once to look towards it from any tower or hill. It must be therefore meant to be the Church, which cannot be ruined."

Jeremiah 31 - Trapp's Complete Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Jeremiah 31, Trapp's Complete Commentary, Trapp's Complete Commentary provides profound Scriptural insights via meticulous examination of original texts and historical contexts.

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Matthew Poole the Puritan (Born 1624)
"Shall be holy unto the Lord; all these places shall be parts of the holy city, and God’s name shall be sanctified, and he shall be worshipped in them all; and the city for a long time shall abide, and
not be plucked up, nor thrown down; for we know after many years it was plucked up by the Romans. If we interpret the word
for ever of a perpetuity, the church of God must here be understood, against which the gates of hell shall never prevail, as Christ hath promised."

Jeremiah 31 - Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Jeremiah 31, Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible, Poole's English Annotations provide invaluable insights into the Bible, examining original texts and historical context for deeper understanding.

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Matthew Henry (1662-1714)
"it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever; which, if understood literally of the city of Jerusalem, can only signify, that it should not be destroyed soon, but should continue a long time; for certain it is, that after it was rebuilt by Zerubbabel, it was plucked up, and thrown down by the Romans, and particularly by Hadrian, who ploughed it up, and built another city, and called it by his own name; but this figuratively rather intends the church of Christ, which is built on him the Rock, and so is immovable; and, like Mount Zion, shall abide for ever."

Books Available - Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Choose from the available books in the 'Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible' commentary written by Matthew Henry FREELY provided by StudyLight.org to help as you prepare sermons, Bible studies, Sunday School lessons or personal devotions.

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John Gill (1697-1771) stands as a monumental figure in the annals of theological scholarship and Baptist thought.
[shall be] holy unto the Lord; that is, the whole city in its utmost compass thus rebuilt, yea, even the out parts of it, and those that were defiled with the carcasses of men, and ashes of the burnt offerings. It seems to respect the extensive holiness of the church of God in the latter day; compare with it Zec 14:10;
it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever; which, if understood literally of the city of Jerusalem, can only signify, that it should not be destroyed soon, but should continue a long time; for certain it is, that after it was rebuilt by Zerubbabel, it was plucked up, and thrown down by the Romans, and particularly by Hadrian, who ploughed it up, and built another city, and called it by his own name; but this figuratively rather intends the church of Christ, which is built on him the Rock, and so is immovable; and, like Mount Zion, shall abide for ever.
** John Gill was a "Historic Pre-mil" which has been seen down through the history of the church! Don't let Dispensationalists claim to be the same Pre-Mil position held down through church history.

The Dispensationalist idea of the Millennium was a totally new, convoluted distortion of the historic Pre-Mil position, and should not be confused with the Pre-Mil position held down through history. When Dispensationalist say their system began earlier in the church by pointing to the Historic Pre-Mil interpretation, they are NOT being honest. The seeds of Dispensationalism came about in the 19th century and only began to spread through the Scofield Study Bible with the beginning of fundamentalism in the 1920s.

 

[Churchgoer]

What is your scriptural basis for this claim? Jesus will return when the 7th trumpet sounds, which happens right after the fullness of the gentiles has completed the temple of God. It has nothing to do with who's in Jerusalem.

Exactly, to that argument, we could say " do we want Jesus to wash away our sins? Let's crucify Him."

God don't need our help to fulfill His plan. God only tell us to obey His commandments.

 

[dkontner]

Jeremiah 3
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Hosea 1
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Romans 9
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

2 Corinthians 3
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Revelation 17
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

 

[legion]

Calling a fellow poster an 'asshole', is both unnecessary and not very Chistian.

Spewing heresy is worse

 

[legion]

Did you mean to reply to someone else?

Probably

 

[Aussie52]

Spewing heresy is worse

My late Father taught me as a child, 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

 

[legion]

I can only go by the dispensationalist site I was on. Strangely, they did have much in common with a core belief, people have on this website who are attacking them. No justification of obeying the law.
I would agree, nine commandments are the only thing carried over from the old law as you put it. Though most christians I know differentiate between the mosaic law and the ten commandments.
I disagreed with dispensationalists. The nine commandments are now written in the mind and placed on the hearts of believers under the new covenant. Dispensationalists do not agree the covenant mentioned in Heb10:15-18 is for gentiles today, only Israelites in the future. I agree with you, the nine commands, and all else are fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbour.

Actually it was the composite summary and fulfillment of all of the Mosaic law that became the new law written on the hearts it was the simple statement love God and love your neighbor because that completely fulfills the law and thus it is depending on how you look at that one or two laws and that's it by working towards that as the primary goal you achieve everything else that was intended to be achieved with the Mosaic law

It's so simple it's almost difficult to grasp

My late Father taught me as a child, 'two wrongs don't make a right'.

I'm not asking to be justified I did it intentionally with malice and spite

 

[PotofSoup]

This is just ridiculous. You're attempting to make it mean whatever you want. No, the apostles weren't zionists because the land was not at all important to them. That is the essence of zionism, ie, that Jews are entitled to the land. They are not. End of story.

What is your scriptural basis for this claim? Jesus will return when the 7th trumpet sounds, which happens right after the fullness of the gentiles has completed the temple of God. It has nothing to do with who's in Jerusalem.

Hello Christrosefromthedead, it has been some time since we spoke. How my debate buddy doing? Speaking of debate, why do you say it is ridiculous? If the land is core to the belief in Judaism and the Apostles are Jewish, then why is this such a hard thing to understand? Do you think Jesus came to fix Judaism and change religions? You say that the Jews are not entitled to the land, then if God did not give the land to the Jews, then who belongs there? The so called Palestinians? Are Palestinians supposed to welcome Him his return?

I am surprised you don't know about this verse, considering you are pretty well versed in scripture. The verse is
Matthew 23:37–39 (NIV)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

It is clear who the "you" is in the verse from the context. Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles has to come in, but that is not enough, Jews must welcome Him back who have everything to do with Jerusalem. Look forward to your response.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I am surprised you don't know about this verse, considering you are pretty well versed in scripture. The verse is
Matthew 23:37–39 (NIV)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

It is clear who the "you" is in the verse from the context. Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles has to come in, but that is not enough, Jews must welcome Him back who have everything to do with Jerusalem. Look forward to your response.

Jesus was prophesying that Jerusalem would not see him again until he came back, not as a lowly preacher from Galilee, but as the king of Israel.

Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Luke 13:33-35​

That prophecy was fulfilled what appears to be 3 days later when Jerusalem saw Jesus descending the Mt of Olives as his disciples glorified him as the king of Israel.

And when [Jesus] was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. Luke 19:37-38​

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[Churchgoer]

Matthew 23:37–39 (NIV)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Jesus is rebuking the unbelieve jews. Also very obviously Jesus do not agree with them killing prophets. Just as today Jesus do not agree with them killing Christians, bombing churches, murdering innocents, plundering other people s home, lands.

Verse 39 is saying only if they repent, they will see the glory God. This verse has nothing to do with a secular political state.

 

[Thaddeus]

Actually it was the composite summary and fulfillment of all of the Mosaic law that became the new law written on the hearts it was the simple statement love God and love your neighbor because that completely fulfills the law and thus it is depending on how you look at that one or two laws and that's it by working towards that as the primary goal you achieve everything else that was intended to be achieved with the Mosaic law

It's so simple it's almost difficult to grasp

I'm not asking to be justified I did it intentionally with malice and spite

Thank you for your response:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
I have often heard it said only the two laws are written in the mind and placed on the hearts of believers. However, that would mean you could only be conscious of sin in regard to not loving God or your neighbour as you should.
If a believer committed adultery for example, would they only be conscious of sin in regard to not loving as they should, or would they specifically be conscious of sin because they committed the act of adultery?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If the land is core to the belief in Judaism and the Apostles are Jewish, then why is this such a hard thing to understand?

The land is core to Judaism, but not to the faith of Christ. The apostles were raised under the teachings of the pharisees, as all Israelites at that time were, but they abandoned any fixation on earthly things once they came into the full knowledge of the truth.

You say that the Jews are not entitled to the land, then if God did not give the land to the Jews, then who belongs there?

The land was promised and given to Jesus. No one but he is entitled to it

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18​

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Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16​

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The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. John 3:35​

Who belongs there now, or who belongs there in the future? I don't think he really cares who lives there now, but the resurrected Israel, the true Israel, whom he will bring with him when he returns, will live there forever.

 

[Churchgoer]

About who is entitled to what land, that goes by 10 commandment, thou shall not murder, steal, covet. We don't invade into our neighbors land, murder them, send them out as refugees, and claim our neighbor s land is ours. That is pure evil.

Every piece of property has owner.