More about Israel.

[Lifted_by_the_word]

Which verse says the church replaces Israel?

The blood doesn't replace water.They are as one.I've never once said that the church replaces Israel.If Jesus came by water, and blood, there is no other way to follow him.How can you enter the gate other then by spirit,water,blood?
When Jesus said "it is finished" and the roman soldier pierced him with his spear,out came water and blood.
That was the fulfilment of what the old covenant was the start of.The death of Jesus on the cross made a narrow path to the "Holy land." No unclean thing shall enter it.In your version they do.

 

[Churchgoer]

And? No one here disagrees with that.

Then what's the argument? We agree

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The blood doesn't replace water.They are as one.I've never once said that the church replaces Israel.If Jesus came by water, and blood, there is no other way to follow him.How can you enter the gate other then by spirit,water,blood?
When Jesus said "it is finished" and the roman soldier pierced him with his spear,out came water and blood.
That was the fulfilment of what the old covenant was the start of.The death of Jesus on the cross made a narrow path to the "Holy land." No unclean thing shall enter it.In your version they do.

No they don't per Romans 11

 

[TabinRivCA]

I asked myself that, and my self said that it's views did not cause the holocaust and that it therefore had no need to repent of them.

If you did some research you'd see that indeed the Vatican and individual clergy did help and protect fleeing nazis. Check out the Intl Red Cross Travel Documents that actually created paperwork identifying nazis as refugees or ordinary citizens. That's something I'm sure they're not proud of. Would you be?
One of the sorrowful events events, along of course with the whole atrocity of hatred of the Jews, was when the ship with Anne Frank came to seek refuge here in the USA. We turned them down and she went back to be murdered, a young girls dreams shattered to say the least. I haven't researched the reason but what a fatal blow to all refugees on that ship.

 

[Beekeeper]

If you did some research you'd see that indeed the Vatican and individual clergy did help and protect fleeing nazis. Check out the Intl Red Cross Travel Documents that actually created paperwork identifying nazis as refugees or ordinary citizens. That's something I'm sure they're not proud of. Would you be?
One of the sorrowful events events, along of course with the whole atrocity of hatred of the Jews, was when the ship with Anne Frank came to seek refuge here in the USA. We turned them down and she went back to be murdered, a young girls dreams shattered to say the least. I haven't researched the reason but what a fatal blow to all refugees on that ship.

The most common type of objections I hear from unbelievers regarding the Christian faith have to do with sins committed by individual Christians.
I do not make it my business to excuse or condemn those individuals, because either way it is on them, not Jesus.
Unless I commit the same sin, how can I answer for it?
I actually think this type of objection is a defensive response of people who feel cornered, rather than an attempt to be reasonable.
We should not let fear of false accusations hinder our way to finding the truth.

 

[TabinRivCA]

The most common type of objections I hear from unbelievers regarding the Christian faith have to do with sins committed by individual Christians.
I do not make it my business to excuse or condemn those individuals, because either way it is on them, not Jesus.
Unless I commit the same sin, how can I answer for it?
I actually think this type of objection is a defensive response of people who feel cornered, rather than an attempt to be reasonable.
We should not let fear of false accusations hinder our way to finding the truth.

I don't get anything you said. Who's asking you to answer for anything? Golly, are you insinuating I'm cornered, lol, that's a meaningless response. With all due respect....gnite we're on diff pages.

 

[Beekeeper]

I don't get anything you said. Who's asking you to answer for anything? Golly, are you insinuating I'm cornered, lol, that's a meaningless response. With all due respect....gnite we're on diff pages.

Sorry If I came across that way, because I was not directing that statement at you personally.
Back in this thread some of us were accused (by a different person) of believing things that led to the holocaust.
I think that type of "theological reasoning" is un-helpful to say the least, but of course you did not write that.

Yes, I am aware that many Christian Germans who lives saw Hitler as their political savior.
Just goes to show that we should not give our loyalty to these beast systems.
We have a nation that deserves our loyalty already in heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[HeIsHere]

The most common type of objections I hear from unbelievers regarding the Christian faith have to do with sins committed by individual Christians.
I do not make it my business to excuse or condemn those individuals, because either way it is on them, not Jesus.
Unless I commit the same sin, how can I answer for it?
I actually think this type of objection is a defensive response of people who feel cornered, rather than an attempt to be reasonable.
We should not let fear of false accusations hinder our way to finding the truth.

"Feeling cornered", good insight..... yes that explains the need to misrepresent (putting it nicely) what was posted by adding or removing.

 

[Churchgoer]

Sorry If I came across that way, because I was not directing that statement at you personally.
Back in this thread some of us were accused (by a different person) of believing things that led to the holocaust.
I think that type of "theological reasoning" is un-helpful to say the least, but of course you did not write that.

Yes, I am aware that many Christian Germans who lives saw Hitler as their political savior.
Just goes to show that we should not give our loyalty to these beast systems.
We have a nation that deserves our loyalty already in heavenly Jerusalem.

If we discuss theology, then just theology. If some pastor commit any sin, that not necessarily means his theology is wrong.

No one is perfect, Peter sinned, Paul sinned, Moses sinned, David sinned..., but the God that they worship is the same, ever lasting. We are not following human.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Beautiful decree of God Rom 11:1-4
I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin. No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said, “LORD, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.” And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”
Romans 11:5 states: "So too, at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." This verse comes from the English Standard Version of Romans 11, where the Apostle Paul explains that God has not completely rejected His people, Israel

 

[Churchgoer]

Beautiful decree of God Rom 11:1-4
I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin. No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said, “LORD, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.” And do you remember God’s reply? He said, “No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!”

Yes, Daniel, 3 young men, Paul, Peter, Stephen.... all among them, who will not bow their knees to Baal.

Which also including all true Christians in Jesus, all ethnicity.

 

[Blade]

God will keep every promise in His Word. In this day and age, Christ the Messiah came to His own and spoke to them face to face, making it clear that no one comes to the Father except through faith in Him. That truth now extends to the whole world. A person may believe in God, observe the feasts, keep the law, and still reject Yeshua and remain lost. Israel today is not automatically nor willingly serving Him for they still reject Him, nor are they automatically saved or made righteous simply by identity. They too must come to Him in faith.

All that being said.. by me.. they are His people whom He chose and every promise He made them praise GOD He will keep. I part of the Church have never replaced His people.. yet I am His people. I am as Isaac was.. "Isaac was chosen as the miraculous son of promise and heir to the covenant". As He Christ said to me.. showing me a beautiful tree so many branches said "show me a branch that was not originally of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches". That for me made it very clear they are His and I am grafted in yet no one can tell what is original branch vs grafted in. Just talking about not replacing Israel. He will never abandon them..

 

[Beekeeper]

Beautiful decree of God Rom 11:1-4
I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel?

Where did you get that translation?
The ESV says: "I ask, then, has God rejected his people?"
The KJV says: "I say then, Hath God cast away his people?"
the Greek translates as follows: 11 So oun I ask legō, has God theos repudiated apōtheō · ho · ho his autos people laos?
Notice that "laos" means "people".
The word for "nation" is "ethnos", and that word does not appear in the text.

To make the focus of v.1 an earthly nation makes a mockery of the whole chapter.
Notice that the olive tree in the chapter is Christ.
Paul wants his kinsmen to be grafted into their natural tree, Jesus Christ, and has reason to believe that God has reserved a remnant of them that will become Christians.

 

[PotofSoup]

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

It is well understood that God brought the children of Israel back to the promised land after this prophesy, yet how do we reconcile the eternal nature of God's intentions with the fact that God also made an eternal new covenant through Jesus, and that He not only used the Romans to destroy old covenant Israel, but intends to destroy the whole earth?
Some say that old covenant Israel will simply be reinstated.
Yet Israel has already existed in many other forms and this would clash with Revelations 18:21
"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."
Which indicates that old covenant Israel is finished forever.
I would suggest that Jacob and the fathers also dwell in heavenly Jerusalem, and "David" is also the house of David, so the prince is Jesus.

Hi Beekeeper, can you please explain what you mean by old covenant Israel? If I understand your mindset, then perhaps I can answer your questions more concisely. Thanks.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Where did you get that translation?
The ESV says: "I ask, then, has God rejected his people?"
The KJV says: "I say then, Hath God cast away his people?"
the Greek translates as follows: 11 So oun I ask legō, has God theos repudiated apōtheō · ho · ho his autos people laos?
Notice that "laos" means "people".
The word for "nation" is "ethnos", and that word does not appear in the text.

To make the focus of v.1 an earthly nation makes a mockery of the whole chapter.
Notice that the olive tree in the chapter is Christ.
Paul wants his kinsmen to be grafted into their natural tree, Jesus Christ, and has reason to believe that God has reserved a remnant of them that will become Christians.

So I happened to select the NLT version not noticing the added 'nation' and not even thinking they had in mind to make a mockery of the whole chapter.
The New Living Translation (NLT) adding "the nation of" to Romans 11:1 is considered an interpretive expansion rather than a strict translation error, but critics argue it forces a specific national/political framework onto a Greek word—ton laon (the people)—that simply meant an ethnic or covenant group.
The NLT uses a thought-for-thought method, adding "the nation of Israel" to make the historical context clear for modern readers.
Critics feel adding "nation" nudges the text prematurely into political or corporate national debates rather than keeping focus on Paul's point about God's faithfulness to a specific lineage of individuals.

 

[God-fearing]

Where did you get that translation?
The ESV says: "I ask, then, has God rejected his people?"
The KJV says: "I say then, Hath God cast away his people?"
the Greek translates as follows: 11 So oun I ask legō, has God theos repudiated apōtheō · ho · ho his autos people laos?
Notice that "laos" means "people".
The word for "nation" is "ethnos", and that word does not appear in the text.

To make the focus of v.1 an earthly nation makes a mockery of the whole chapter.
Notice that the olive tree in the chapter is Christ.
Paul wants his kinsmen to be grafted into their natural tree, Jesus Christ, and has reason to believe that God has reserved a remnant of them that will become Christians.

How do jews become Christian when there is no such thing in Christ?

 

[Churchgoer]

How do jews become Christian when there is no such thing in Christ?

Not sure about your question?
Jews become Christian by accepting Jesus as Lord, YHVH.

"When there is no such thing in Christ " - ????

 

[Beekeeper]

Hi Beekeeper, can you please explain what you mean by old covenant Israel? If I understand your mindset, then perhaps I can answer your questions more concisely. Thanks.

I am glad you asked me that, because some people think that when I say "old covenant" I refer to the promises that God made to "Abraham and his seed", as these are promises that still continue in the new covenant through "his seed" which is Christ (Galatians 3:16) in whom all the families of the earth are blessed.

The old covenant that the children of Israel were under is the one made at Mt. Sinai.
This is the covenant where the law of Moses was given, and was broken by the children of Israel.
This is also the covenant that bound the children of Israel to the holy land.
When God describes the blessings for obedience and the curses for disobedience to Israel, one of the cursed includes
Deuteronomy 28:21 "The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it"

A good illustration of the old and new covenants:

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that despite having broken the old covenant, the children of Israel have a far superior hope in the new covenant.
It is an eternal spiritual hope shared by all in Christ, but it is not found in the earthly kingdom.

 

[Beekeeper]

How do jews become Christian when there is no such thing in Christ?

"Christ" is a translation of "Messiah", so I would say that they do have one.
God intentionally gave us the NT in Greek, and though we pronounce "Jesus" and "Christ" slightly differently, I do not consider us to be mistaken in using those names.

The name "Christian" was first given at Antioch (Acts 2:26) to the disciples of Christ, and it seems that these Christians were also Jewish, so I would say "Christian" is just a translation too.

 

[TabinRivCA]

In Christ means in the anointing, where the Kingdom of Heaven is.