More about Israel.

[Beekeeper]

For whatever it's worth, I agree with almost all of the points of your post with the following few exceptions:

I would suggest that because this is an eternal, heavenly promise concerning a spiritual and eternal land given solely by God’s unconditional act, those who place their faith in Jesus do so only because God first included them in that promise, with their faith coming from it as a result. In other words, faith is not a prerequisite for someone to satisfy in order to be placed under the promise. If faith were a transactional requirement for receiving the promise, then the promise would still depend on us, making it a performance/works-based promise. If we had to produce faith to obtain it, then we —not God—would have to satisfy it. However, the promise was given and obtained only by God's grace
The Bible teaches that the heavenly inheritance belongs to Jesus alone because He is the only one who qualified for it (Galatians 3:16). Therefore, it cannot be earned by our faith. Jesus fully satisfied the Abrahamic covenant, and God, in His abundant mercy and grace, sovereignly chose to include certain people under it - those whom He had appointed for it. Human performance is neither required nor permitted because Jesus alone is the Savior, man is not.

I think that I have to agree with you on a deeper level that faith itself must be an act of God, or the spirit of God working in us.
If that was not the case we would be bringing our own pride to God for having done our part of the job.
Rightly or wrongly I have adopted the habit of speaking in terms of mans responsibility regarding faith however, because from our point of view this is how it appears when trials of faith come our way.
We seem to have so many choices other than being faithful.
I see no reason why the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man should have ever been a cause for theological division, because both realities exist at the same time.

I think the earthly land promises were given by God while under the name of Abram, not Abraham. However, the promise for the spiritual land (spiritual Israel) was given to Abraham, not Abram, and was satisfied by Jesus Christ, not David and Solomon

That is an interesting thought.
I notice that Abram was given the name Abraham in Genesis 17:5, and called the father of many nations.
The everlasting covenants were given in the verses immediately after that.

 

[rogerg]

That is an interesting thought.
I notice that Abram was given the name Abraham in Genesis 17:5, and called the father of many nations.
The everlasting covenants were given in the verses immediately after that.

I believe Genesis 12:7 (below) shows that God’s promise to Abram concerned the earthly land which was to be given to his physical descendants, and which later became the land of Israel. To understand God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 17, the key is in how we understand the word Canaan. Because the physical nation of Israel did not yet exist, God used the name Canaan for Abraham's sake (given that the land of Canaan would eventually become the exact same land of Israel). However, because God explicitly identifies this possession as everlasting, He cannot be referring to physical, earthly dirt, which scripture notes will eventually be destroyed along with the rest of the old creation. Instead, it seems to me that Canaan functions here as a symbolic representation of spiritual Israel and of the eternal kingdom. So, there are two distinct dimensions: the early, physical promise of Genesis 12 that was localized and subject to the actions of Abram's descendants (by which they failed God), as opposed to the spiritual promise in Genesis 17 that uses physical terms to describe an everlasting, unchangeable reality. This everlasting, spiritual, dimension, served as the basis of the New Covenant

[Gen 12:7 KJV] 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

[Gen 17:7 KJV] 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[Gen 17:8 KJV] 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

 

[brightfame52]

But Paul no doubt met with opposition and objection, that all of Isaac's natural descendants are of the Promise ! So Paul goes on to speak of his natural descendants, per Jacob and Esau, who where both born of Isaac and Rebekah Rom 9:10-13


10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


So what Paul is doing is abolishing the false idea that the natural descendants determines whether or not one is included in the Israel of God or Promise. For it can be said of both Ishmael and Esau that they can be traced back to the natural lineage of Abraham, they are children of the flesh, however both were rejected from being heirs of promise or Israel of promise ! You see Abraham was given a seed born after the Spirit, that seed is Israel, but it has nothing to do with His natural children, although some of them have been grafted into that spiritual Israel, as even some gentiles as well.

Folks it is those of Faith [ A Spiritual Fruit see Gal 5:22] that belong to Israel of promise to which pertains the promises Gal 3:7


7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham=[Israel].

And that regardless of ethnicity, without Faith from being born of the Spirit, all of Abraham's physical descendants are of the seed of satan [gentiles too], with no distinction between them and the offspring of Ishmael or Esau, or the sons of Keturah, Abraham's second wife, and as such they have no right or claim to any of God's gracious covenant of promises, nor to be regarded as Israel of promise,

Rev 3:9

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

No doubt these where physical jews, but as Jesus told them once before Jn 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. 5

 

[PotofSoup]

Those who put their faith in Jesus inherit the eternal "land" promise made to Abraham.
Nobody can inherit an eternal earthly kingdom, because the earth is to pass away.
Christians, like Abraham, are called to be citizens of Jerusalem Above (Galatians 4:21-28).
Earthly Jerusalem no longer exists as it was, and is not a Christian cause.

It is the earthly land promise to ABRAHAM that was fulfilled under David and Solomon.
The earthly land promise to Israel was fulfilled under Moses by Joshua (Joshua 11:15 and 11:23).
It was not an unconditional promise, but one that required the keeping of the law.
The land of Palestine no longer belongs to "The Jews" in the eyes of God because they have long ago failed to keep the law.
Those who have put their faith in Jesus also did not keep the law of Moses, yet they put their faith in one who has not failed.
How then is God able to keep the land promise if none remain to receive it?
It so happens that one person remains.
The Lord Jesus Christ.
So Jesus alone is to inherit the land of Canaan, yet His kingdom is heavenly and eternal and He has inherited the whole earth together with that land.
As king, He will renovate this earth as He sees fit (Revelations 21).

In this time many Christians struggle to understand that "everlasting" promises of God, such as Genesis 17:8 are always fulfilled in the kingdom of heaven.
That does not seem to be the case with the writers of earlier commentaries, and it is due to bad teaching that an earthly fulfillment of Genesis 17:8 is looked for.
The result not only contradicts the rest of the Bible, but has brought much unnecessary pain and suffering.
Just to illustrate, lets look at another "everlasting" covenant that gets less attention:

Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Most of us would understand that the earthly body of a man must pass away, and he will not continue to have the sign of this covenant in his flesh for eternity.
We who read the Bible also understand that together with the law, this requirement has been "done away" (1Corinthians 13:10), because in its place God has required that our "circumcision is that of the heart" (Romans 2:29).

So we conclude that circumcision in the flesh was only symbolic of God's everlasting covenant.
It was obeyed by Jesus, but done away with a a requirement of God for the rest of us because the thing it symbolized in now eternally here.
I put it to you that Genesis 17:8 is to be understood in the same way.

Hello again,

I want to speak to you gently but plainly, You are building your entire argument on distant future events — the passing away of the present earth, the new creation, and the heavenly Jerusalem. But those events are far beyond our horizon, and Scripture itself warns us that such things are seen “dimly” and “in part.” When we take unclear future realities and use them to reinterpret clear past promises, we end up with conclusions that Scripture never makes and that God never speaks.

So, I prefer to anchor myself in what God has already said and already done, because past promises and past fulfillments are the most reliable indicators of future ones.

In the past, Jesus who is God repeatedly calls the land promise everlasting in Genesis 17:8 “an everlasting possession”, Psalm 105:8–11 “a covenant forever… the land of Canaan”, Ezekiel 37:25 “they shall dwell in the land forever”. Hence, if the promise of this land to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his descendants was ended at the time of Solomon, then God broke His promise to them. The promise does not have an expiration date, because forever means forever.

Scripture never says the promise ended. You will not find a single verse that says it expired under Solomon. Not one. And if such a verse existed, it would contradict the Abrahamic covenant itself, a covenant God swore by His own name. If the promise ended under Solomon, why did God restore Israel from Babylon?

That past promise was kept and prophesized in the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Amos by Jesus instructing them to write about their return to the land after their exile from around the globe. Now this past prophesy is being realized in our current day, and as antisemitism continues to rise around the world, so will immigration to Israel by Jews across the world. Can you not see God's miraculous hand in this? Hence, if the promise of the land ended in Solomons time, then why would God Himself bring Jews from around the world back to this land?

Zechariah 14 describes Jesus returning to defend Jerusalem against the nations. That is a near future event. If Jews have no claim to the land, why is Jesus defending them in it? It seems clear to me that Jews will continue to live in this land even after Jesus return as evidenced by Ezekiel’s tribal map in Ezekiel 47–48. If Jews are no longer promised the land after Solomon, then why are they living there even after Jesus' return?

Again, I cannot say for certain what the far future holds after the 1000 year reign, when the new earth comes, since it does not specifically say that Jews will be residing in the New Jerusalem in scripture. But past and present events can give us a hint on the direction on this prophecy. Since, God promised the Jews the land forever and that Jews would continue to be Jews forever (Jeremiah 31:35–37), and Jesus does not break promises, and the nations reside outside of the New Jerusalem, then it is probable that Jews will be residing within the New Jerusalem, especially considering that the gates of New Jerusalem are written the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:12).

In light of everything I have discussed with you up until this point, I have to ask, why are you adamant about trying to take away land that God clearly has given to the Jews?

 

[Churchgoer]

Truth is worth fighting for.

Why did Jesus tell the people good news? And why did Jesus whipped the temple market? The temple is clearly managed by the jews, God's people?

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 2:29 ; Rom 9:6,8

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What seed ? The Children of the promise are the seed of Israel !

The seed of Israel that shall be Justified per Isa 45:25

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

That seed of Israel is the same as the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

That Israel is the Church ! Which belongs to Christ. To deny this is to deny scripture and call God a Liar.

Now even though they are ignored or twisted, there are many scriptures in the NT where OT Prophecies regarding Israel's restoration or regathering are made to be realized in the Church, the One Christ builds Matt 16:18


18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The greek word for build is Oikodomeo and means:

to build a house, erect a building

a) to build (up from the foundation)

b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

Notice He said I will be building MY Church, the Church of Me, in other words, it was presently His Church, that He would be building upon, for He himself is the foundation, so if He existed then and now, then so did His Church. The building material is but part of and erected from the foundation, Now who is the foundation ?

1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So this points to the Church as being the True Israel of God, the body of Him who is the True Israel of God, the seed of Abraham, Christ.

Now notice something, Who is the seed of Abraham to whom the promises of God were made ? Lets look at Gal 3:16


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

Now, none but a fool would deny that Christ is the seed of Abraham from this scripture. Now Who is the Head of the Church, the Body ? Lets read here Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Now, is this the same Christ which is the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:16 ?

If it is, then what's to keep us from saying that the seed of Abraham is the Head of the Church ?

Did this Seed of Abraham exist in the OT ?

And this True Israel is made up of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews, for this is the Israel that is of Abraham's Faith, and not of His blood. Hence the differences outlined here by Paul Rom 9:6-8


6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Children of Faith are the True Children of God as per Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were True Israel, Children of God, by Faith in Christ, not because of their blood or Ethnicity..Now there Faith in Christ constituted them the seed of Abraham as per Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So from the Faith perspective, Did Christ Church, of which He is the Head of as the seed of Abraham, did it exist in the OT..

Did Abraham Isaac, and Jacob believe in or Have Faith in a Living Christ ? 5

 

[Churchgoer]

Rom 2:29 ; Rom 9:6,8

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What seed ? The Children of the promise are the seed of Israel !

The seed of Israel that shall be Justified per Isa 45:25

In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

That seed of Israel is the same as the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed [Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

That Israel is the Church ! Which belongs to Christ. To deny this is to deny scripture and call God a Liar.

Now even though they are ignored or twisted, there are many scriptures in the NT where OT Prophecies regarding Israel's restoration or regathering are made to be realized in the Church, the One Christ builds Matt 16:18


18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The greek word for build is Oikodomeo and means:

to build a house, erect a building

a) to build (up from the foundation)

b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair

Notice He said I will be building MY Church, the Church of Me, in other words, it was presently His Church, that He would be building upon, for He himself is the foundation, so if He existed then and now, then so did His Church. The building material is but part of and erected from the foundation, Now who is the foundation ?

1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

So this points to the Church as being the True Israel of God, the body of Him who is the True Israel of God, the seed of Abraham, Christ.

Now notice something, Who is the seed of Abraham to whom the promises of God were made ? Lets look at Gal 3:16


16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

Now, none but a fool would deny that Christ is the seed of Abraham from this scripture. Now Who is the Head of the Church, the Body ? Lets read here Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Now, is this the same Christ which is the seed of Abraham in Gal 3:16 ?

If it is, then what's to keep us from saying that the seed of Abraham is the Head of the Church ?

Did this Seed of Abraham exist in the OT ?

And this True Israel is made up of both believing Gentiles and believing Jews, for this is the Israel that is of Abraham's Faith, and not of His blood. Hence the differences outlined here by Paul Rom 9:6-8


6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Children of Faith are the True Children of God as per Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were True Israel, Children of God, by Faith in Christ, not because of their blood or Ethnicity..Now there Faith in Christ constituted them the seed of Abraham as per Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So from the Faith perspective, Did Christ Church, of which He is the Head of as the seed of Abraham, did it exist in the OT..

Did Abraham Isaac, and Jacob believe in or Have Faith in a Living Christ ? 5

Absolutely, in OT, they look ahead for Jesus, we in NT, look back for Jesus.

Jesus is the beginning and the end. No other way to salvation except through Him.

Neither a red heifer nor political system will save anyone. Ethnic blood not saving anyone.

 

[Beekeeper]

Hello again,

I want to speak to you gently but plainly, You are building your entire argument on distant future events — the passing away of the present earth, the new creation, and the heavenly Jerusalem. But those events are far beyond our horizon, and Scripture itself warns us that such things are seen “dimly” and “in part.” When we take unclear future realities and use them to reinterpret clear past promises, we end up with conclusions that Scripture never makes and that God never speaks.

So, I prefer to anchor myself in what God has already said and already done, because past promises and past fulfillments are the most reliable indicators of future ones.

In the past, Jesus who is God repeatedly calls the land promise everlasting in Genesis 17:8 “an everlasting possession”, Psalm 105:8–11 “a covenant forever… the land of Canaan”, Ezekiel 37:25 “they shall dwell in the land forever”. Hence, if the promise of this land to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his descendants was ended at the time of Solomon, then God broke His promise to them. The promise does not have an expiration date, because forever means forever.

Scripture never says the promise ended. You will not find a single verse that says it expired under Solomon. Not one. And if such a verse existed, it would contradict the Abrahamic covenant itself, a covenant God swore by His own name. If the promise ended under Solomon, why did God restore Israel from Babylon?

That past promise was kept and prophesized in the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Amos by Jesus instructing them to write about their return to the land after their exile from around the globe. Now this past prophesy is being realized in our current day, and as antisemitism continues to rise around the world, so will immigration to Israel by Jews across the world. Can you not see God's miraculous hand in this? Hence, if the promise of the land ended in Solomons time, then why would God Himself bring Jews from around the world back to this land?

Zechariah 14 describes Jesus returning to defend Jerusalem against the nations. That is a near future event. If Jews have no claim to the land, why is Jesus defending them in it? It seems clear to me that Jews will continue to live in this land even after Jesus return as evidenced by Ezekiel’s tribal map in Ezekiel 47–48. If Jews are no longer promised the land after Solomon, then why are they living there even after Jesus' return?

Again, I cannot say for certain what the far future holds after the 1000 year reign, when the new earth comes, since it does not specifically say that Jews will be residing in the New Jerusalem in scripture. But past and present events can give us a hint on the direction on this prophecy. Since, God promised the Jews the land forever and that Jews would continue to be Jews forever (Jeremiah 31:35–37), and Jesus does not break promises, and the nations reside outside of the New Jerusalem, then it is probable that Jews will be residing within the New Jerusalem, especially considering that the gates of New Jerusalem are written the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:12).

In light of everything I have discussed with you up until this point, I have to ask, why are you adamant about trying to take away land that God clearly has given to the Jews?

You cover many points, and to avoid I will not try to answer everything yet.
Heavenly Jerusalem and the reign of Christ are both present realities in my understanding, and the next prophesied event I expect to happen is the second and final coming of Christ.

The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants are very different from each other and not to be lumped into one.
While the Mosaic promises are all conditional, the Abrahamic promises are all unconditional.
Some Abrahamic promises are earthly, and some are eternal or everlasting.
The earthly promises were made with one man only, ie that God would show him the promised land, make a great nation of him, make of him many nations, bless his friends and judge his enemies, send his Israelite descendants to Egypt and deliver them and that he would die in peace.
All of these things God made to happen, including the great nation that came to its strength under Solomon.

The eternal promises were made to Abraham and his seed, not to "The Jews", because all who are called the seed of Abraham are in Christ, and share Abraham's faithfulness.
Faith is not a "condition", because as @rogerg rightly points out, it is a work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
None of Abraham's promises were made to unfaithful persons of any race.
The OT saints who have lived in earthly Canaan fulfill the everlasting aspect of Genesis 17:8 in the heavenly promised land.
The children of Israel continue to live in Canaan under the conditional covenant of Moses until that covenant is terminated because of their disobedience.
Jesus has not disobeyed the Law, and the Mosaic covenant is not terminated but fulfilled in Him, and He also remains the seed of Abraham.
He however has no need to dwell in Canaan, though he continues to possess it.
The faithful among the children of Israel also inherit the heavenly promised land, as do the faithful of the NT.

 

[PotofSoup]

You cover many points, and to avoid I will not try to answer everything yet.
Heavenly Jerusalem and the reign of Christ are both present realities in my understanding, and the next prophesied event I expect to happen is the second and final coming of Christ.

The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants are very different from each other and not to be lumped into one.
While the Mosaic promises are all conditional, the Abrahamic promises are all unconditional.
Some Abrahamic promises are earthly, and some are eternal or everlasting.
The earthly promises were made with one man only, ie that God would show him the promised land, make a great nation of him, make of him many nations, bless his friends and judge his enemies, send his Israelite descendants to Egypt and deliver them and that he would die in peace.
All of these things God made to happen, including the great nation that came to its strength under Solomon.

The eternal promises were made to Abraham and his seed, not to "The Jews", because all who are called the seed of Abraham are in Christ, and share Abraham's faithfulness.
Faith is not a "condition", because as @rogerg rightly points out, it is a work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
None of Abraham's promises were made to unfaithful persons of any race.
The OT saints who have lived in earthly Canaan fulfill the everlasting aspect of Genesis 17:8 in the heavenly promised land.
The children of Israel continue to live in Canaan under the conditional covenant of Moses until that covenant is terminated because of their disobedience.
Jesus has not disobeyed the Law, and the Mosaic covenant is not terminated but fulfilled in Him, and He also remains the seed of Abraham.
He however has no need to dwell in Canaan, though he continues to possess it.
The faithful among the children of Israel also inherit the heavenly promised land, as do the faithful of the NT.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the thought you’ve put into your view. However, I do want to gently point out that the questions I raised earlier still remain unanswered. What you’ve offered here seems more like a restatement of your position rather than an engagement with the specific issues I asked you to clarify.

You mentioned the heavenly Jerusalem and the present reign of Christ, and I agree with you on those points. But if you recall, the context of our earlier discussion was not the present heavenly reality, but the new earth, which is still future. That distinction matters because it shapes how we understand the fulfillment of God’s promises.

I’m also glad we agree that the Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic covenant are very different and should not be blended together. And I appreciate your acknowledgment that Abraham’s promises include both earthly and eternal dimensions.

Regarding the eternal promises, you said they belong to Abraham’s “seed,” which you define as those who are in Christ. I agree that everyone in Jesus shares in the eternal blessings. But I want to make sure I understand you correctly: you are including ethnic Jews who put their trust in their Messiah Jesus, yes? Because Scripture presents Abraham’s seed in more than one aspect—Christ Himself, and also Abraham’s physical descendants.

Where I need further clarity is your statement that Old Testament believers who lived in Canaan now fulfill the everlasting land promise by living in the heavenly promised land. That seems to imply that the earthly land is no longer necessary. If that is what you mean, I would encourage you to reconsider that conclusion in light of your own acknowledgment that the final hope for God’s people is not heaven, but the new earth, where heaven comes down.

If the final destination is earthly, then the physical land remains part of God’s plan. When God told Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that the land would be theirs, He was speaking of actual, physical territory—not a heavenly metaphor. And while Israel did break the Mosaic covenant, Scripture repeatedly shows that their discipline is temporary, not permanent. Their return to the land in our own time is a powerful reminder of that.

So, my hope is that we can continue this conversation with those points in mind, and perhaps you can address the questions that remain open. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[brightfame52]

Are made to be realized in the Church !

Now even though they are ignored or twisted, there are many scriptures in the NT where OT Prophecies regarding Israel's restoration or regathering are made to be realized in the Church.

The Church has not replaced Israel, but is the Clarification of who Israel [of God] has always been, never a Physical People, however comprised of spiritually reborn physical people.

The Israel of God which was comprised in the OT with ethnic jews who had been circumcised in their hearts [born again] is now in the NT comprised of both circumcised in heart jews and gentiles [Phil 3:3 & Rom 2:29] or as another way Paul puts it the Olive Tree , which stands for the True Israel of God, which is now comprised of born again Natural Jews [branches] and Unnatural Branches Gentiles, but in any case believing Branches.

With that in Mind we can begin to understand why prophecies and promises in the OT directed to Israel are fulfilled and applied to the Church.

We will look at a couple of Illustrations for evidence of the same.

In Acts 15:14-18 James interprets the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, which is the rebuilding of David's Tabernacle as finding its fulfillment in the calling out of the Gentiles a people for His names sake in a expanding formation of the Church, Christ is building His Church as the Son of David.

This is another way of saying gentiles being grafted into the Olive Tree of Rom 11:17 /5

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The promises that He made to the unfaithful Jews were not that nice.
You can read them in Deuteronomy 28:15-68.
He fulfilled them when He judged apostate Jerusalem in 70AD.
The nation that began in 1948 is not old covenant Israel, and no such earthly nation will ever be restored.

“Then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.” – Deuteronomy 30:3

“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.” – Ezekiel 36:26

Jeremiah 31:10

Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare in the coastlands afar off,
And say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him
And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.”


Ezekiel 39:27
When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.


Psalm 107:2-3
Let the redeemed of the Lord say so,
Whom He has redeemed from the hand of the adversary
And gathered from the lands,
From the east and from the west,
From the north and from the south.


Ezekiel 39:28

Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.


There are more verses than these. Sorry, I have to follow what the Word says.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

no need to worship an earthly secular kingdom, which is same as worshipping a golden calf.

Genesis 12:2-3​

I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Numbers 24:9​

Blessed are those who bless you, and cursed are those who curse you.”

Zechariah 2:8​

For thus said the Lord of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye:

Zechariah 12:9​

And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Psalm 122:6​

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you!



There are many more verses if you'd like.

 

[Churchgoer]

Genesis 12:2-3​

I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Numbers 24:9​

Blessed are those who bless you, and cursed are those who curse you.”

Zechariah 2:8​

For thus said the Lord of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye:

Zechariah 12:9​

And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Psalm 122:6​

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you!



There are many more verses if you'd like.

Wonderful
All scripture teaching us to bless people!!!
What is true blessing?
Give people idols is blessing them?
Help people commit murdering is blessing them?
Tell people they don't need Jesus is blessing them?
Curse people to eternal hell is blessing them?
Be as the crowd to crucify Jesus is blessing the crowd?

The only blessing we know from Jesus is Jesus!!! There is nothing good outside of God, Jesus.

I will not help to make the idols. My Lord don't allow.

For me and my family, we will serve the Lord, Jesus the only way, truth, life!!!

 

[brightfame52]

“Then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.” – Deuteronomy 30:3

“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.” – Ezekiel 36:26

Jeremiah 31:10

Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare in the coastlands afar off,
And say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him
And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.”


Ezekiel 39:27
When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.


Psalm 107:2-3
Let the redeemed of the Lord say so,
Whom He has redeemed from the hand of the adversary
And gathered from the lands,
From the east and from the west,
From the north and from the south.


Ezekiel 39:28

Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.


There are more verses than these. Sorry, I have to follow what the Word says.

I think ThereRoseaLam's verses need to be examined more closely, because I don't think Beekeeper is denying that the OT contains promises of Israel's restoration. The real question is what kind of restoration the prophets promised and how the New Testament identifies its fulfillment.

For example, you quoted Deuteronomy 30:3:

“That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.”

Agreed. But notice what follows immediately in Deuteronomy 30:6:

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.”

So the promised restoration is not merely geographical. The gathering is accompanied by heart circumcision and spiritual renewal.

The same thing happens in the Ezekiel passage you cited.

Ezekiel 36:24 speaks of God gathering Israel from the nations and bringing them into their own land, but then verses 25–27 explain what God will do:

“Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you... And I will put my spirit within you.”

Therefore, we shouldn't take the geographical component of these prophecies and separate it from the spiritual realities that God Himself says accompany the restoration.

And this becomes especially important when we come to the New Testament.

Paul tells us:

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”
— Romans 2:28–29

So Paul takes the very concept of heart circumcision and identifies its true covenantal significance as spiritual rather than merely physical.

Then Romans 9–11 gives us the necessary distinction concerning Israel.

“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”
— Romans 9:6

Paul then says:

“A remnant shall be saved.”
— Romans 9:27

And in Romans 11:

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
— Romans 11:5

Then he makes the distinction absolutely explicit:

“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”
— Romans 11:7

So there was indeed a national Israel, but not every individual within national Israel constituted the Israel according to God's saving election. There was an elect remnant within the physical nation.

That is why Romans 11:1–2 is so important:

“God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.”

Paul does not define God's saving people simply by physical descent. He distinguishes between the physical nation and those whom God foreknew according to His electing purpose.

And now consider what Paul says about believing Gentiles.

He does not say that Gentiles replace Israel with an entirely unrelated people. He uses the analogy of an olive tree:

“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree...”
— Romans 11:17

The natural branches are Israel. The wild branches are believing Gentiles.

And notice the language:

“grafted in among them”

and

“with them partakest.”

The believing Gentile does not create a second olive tree. He is brought into the existing tree and participates in its root and fatness.

Therefore, I don't believe Beekeeper is denying the OT restoration promises. The issue is how those promises are interpreted in light of the New Testament.

The prophets certainly spoke of:

gathering,

restoration,

heart circumcision,

a new heart,

a new spirit,

and God dwelling among His people.

But the New Testament reveals that these promises find their saving fulfillment through Christ and the Spirit, and that God's covenant people are defined by God's saving work rather than merely by physical descent.

So I would ask a very simple question:

Where does the New Testament explicitly teach that these restoration prophecies require a future restoration of an earthly nation consisting of ethnic Israel as a whole?

Not merely that Israel was gathered geographically in some prophetic passage, but that the New Testament requires us to interpret these promises as a future national restoration of every ethnic Israelite—or of a future political state—as opposed to their fulfillment in the redeemed people of God constituted around Christ.

That distinction matters.

Because even if someone establishes that the prophets spoke of Israel's restoration—and they unquestionably did—that does not by itself establish the dispensational conclusion being placed upon those prophecies.

The New Testament has to tell us who the restored Israel is and how the promised restoration is fulfilled.

And Romans 9–11 gives us that framework:

Israel according to the flesh → national Israel

the election of grace → the believing remnant

believing Gentiles → wild branches grafted into the same olive tree

Christ → the One in whom God's covenant promises are fulfilled

So I agree that Scripture says God will restore His people.

The question is not whether God keeps His promises.

The question is: who are the people to whom those promises ultimately belong according to the New Testament's own interpretation?

 

[Churchgoer]

I think ThereRoseaLam's verses need to be examined more closely, because I don't think Beekeeper is denying that the OT contains promises of Israel's restoration. The real question is what kind of restoration the prophets promised and how the New Testament identifies its fulfillment.

For example, you quoted Deuteronomy 30:3:


Agreed. But notice what follows immediately in Deuteronomy 30:6:


So the promised restoration is not merely geographical. The gathering is accompanied by heart circumcision and spiritual renewal.

The same thing happens in the Ezekiel passage you cited.

Ezekiel 36:24 speaks of God gathering Israel from the nations and bringing them into their own land, but then verses 25–27 explain what God will do:


Therefore, we shouldn't take the geographical component of these prophecies and separate it from the spiritual realities that God Himself says accompany the restoration.

And this becomes especially important when we come to the New Testament.

Paul tells us:


So Paul takes the very concept of heart circumcision and identifies its true covenantal significance as spiritual rather than merely physical.

Then Romans 9–11 gives us the necessary distinction concerning Israel.


Paul then says:


And in Romans 11:


Then he makes the distinction absolutely explicit:


So there was indeed a national Israel, but not every individual within national Israel constituted the Israel according to God's saving election. There was an elect remnant within the physical nation.

That is why Romans 11:1–2 is so important:


Paul does not define God's saving people simply by physical descent. He distinguishes between the physical nation and those whom God foreknew according to His electing purpose.

And now consider what Paul says about believing Gentiles.

He does not say that Gentiles replace Israel with an entirely unrelated people. He uses the analogy of an olive tree:


The natural branches are Israel. The wild branches are believing Gentiles.

And notice the language:

“grafted in among them”

and

“with them partakest.”

The believing Gentile does not create a second olive tree. He is brought into the existing tree and participates in its root and fatness.

Therefore, I don't believe Beekeeper is denying the OT restoration promises. The issue is how those promises are interpreted in light of the New Testament.

The prophets certainly spoke of:

gathering,

restoration,

heart circumcision,

a new heart,

a new spirit,

and God dwelling among His people.

But the New Testament reveals that these promises find their saving fulfillment through Christ and the Spirit, and that God's covenant people are defined by God's saving work rather than merely by physical descent.

So I would ask a very simple question:

Where does the New Testament explicitly teach that these restoration prophecies require a future restoration of an earthly nation consisting of ethnic Israel as a whole?

Not merely that Israel was gathered geographically in some prophetic passage, but that the New Testament requires us to interpret these promises as a future national restoration of every ethnic Israelite—or of a future political state—as opposed to their fulfillment in the redeemed people of God constituted around Christ.

That distinction matters.

Because even if someone establishes that the prophets spoke of Israel's restoration—and they unquestionably did—that does not by itself establish the dispensational conclusion being placed upon those prophecies.

The New Testament has to tell us who the restored Israel is and how the promised restoration is fulfilled.

And Romans 9–11 gives us that framework:

Israel according to the flesh → national Israel

the election of grace → the believing remnant

believing Gentiles → wild branches grafted into the same olive tree

Christ → the One in whom God's covenant promises are fulfilled

So I agree that Scripture says God will restore His people.

The question is not whether God keeps His promises.

The question is: who are the people to whom those promises ultimately belong according to the New Testament's own interpretation?

What an amazing true believer of Jesus! A true believer of scripture!

Thank God for believers like you. Our Lord sure reserves 7000 who will not bend the knees to baal !!!!

Amen, amen, amen.

 

[dkontner]

Matthew 8​

8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Wonderful
All scripture teaching us to bless people!!!

Did you not read Scripture? Do you not know what it's saying?

What is true blessing?
Give people idols is blessing them?
Help people commit murdering is blessing them?
Tell people they don't need Jesus is blessing them?
Curse people to eternal hell is blessing them?
Be as the crowd to crucify Jesus is blessing the crowd?

Again, do you not understand what the Bible is saying? All of that is your opinion and bias. What is the Scripture telling you to do?

The only blessing we know from Jesus is Jesus!!! There is nothing good outside of God, Jesus.

Ok so you don't understand Scripture.

I will not help to make the idols. My Lord don't allow.

For me and my family, we will serve the Lord, Jesus the only way, truth, life!!!

So, let me get this right, you're going to disobey Scripture thinking you're obeying Scripture. Wow, you need to do some serious Bible study.

 

[Churchgoer]

To all, please See post #1654 for good scripture study.

This is also many church teach.

Praise to God, in the name of Jesus!!!

 

[Roger316]

I think ThereRoseaLam's verses need to be examined more closely, because I don't think Beekeeper is denying that the OT contains promises of Israel's restoration. The real question is what kind of restoration the prophets promised and how the New Testament identifies its fulfillment.

For example, you quoted Deuteronomy 30:3:


Agreed. But notice what follows immediately in Deuteronomy 30:6:


So the promised restoration is not merely geographical. The gathering is accompanied by heart circumcision and spiritual renewal.

The same thing happens in the Ezekiel passage you cited.

Ezekiel 36:24 speaks of God gathering Israel from the nations and bringing them into their own land, but then verses 25–27 explain what God will do:


Therefore, we shouldn't take the geographical component of these prophecies and separate it from the spiritual realities that God Himself says accompany the restoration.

And this becomes especially important when we come to the New Testament.

Paul tells us:


So Paul takes the very concept of heart circumcision and identifies its true covenantal significance as spiritual rather than merely physical.

Then Romans 9–11 gives us the necessary distinction concerning Israel.


Paul then says:


And in Romans 11:


Then he makes the distinction absolutely explicit:


So there was indeed a national Israel, but not every individual within national Israel constituted the Israel according to God's saving election. There was an elect remnant within the physical nation.

That is why Romans 11:1–2 is so important:


Paul does not define God's saving people simply by physical descent. He distinguishes between the physical nation and those whom God foreknew according to His electing purpose.

And now consider what Paul says about believing Gentiles.

He does not say that Gentiles replace Israel with an entirely unrelated people. He uses the analogy of an olive tree:


The natural branches are Israel. The wild branches are believing Gentiles.

And notice the language:

“grafted in among them”

and

“with them partakest.”

The believing Gentile does not create a second olive tree. He is brought into the existing tree and participates in its root and fatness.

Therefore, I don't believe Beekeeper is denying the OT restoration promises. The issue is how those promises are interpreted in light of the New Testament.

The prophets certainly spoke of:

gathering,

restoration,

heart circumcision,

a new heart,

a new spirit,

and God dwelling among His people.

But the New Testament reveals that these promises find their saving fulfillment through Christ and the Spirit, and that God's covenant people are defined by God's saving work rather than merely by physical descent.

So I would ask a very simple question:

Where does the New Testament explicitly teach that these restoration prophecies require a future restoration of an earthly nation consisting of ethnic Israel as a whole?

Not merely that Israel was gathered geographically in some prophetic passage, but that the New Testament requires us to interpret these promises as a future national restoration of every ethnic Israelite—or of a future political state—as opposed to their fulfillment in the redeemed people of God constituted around Christ.

That distinction matters.

Because even if someone establishes that the prophets spoke of Israel's restoration—and they unquestionably did—that does not by itself establish the dispensational conclusion being placed upon those prophecies.

The New Testament has to tell us who the restored Israel is and how the promised restoration is fulfilled.

And Romans 9–11 gives us that framework:

Israel according to the flesh → national Israel

the election of grace → the believing remnant

believing Gentiles → wild branches grafted into the same olive tree

Christ → the One in whom God's covenant promises are fulfilled

So I agree that Scripture says God will restore His people.

The question is not whether God keeps His promises.

The question is: who are the people to whom those promises ultimately belong according to the New Testament's own interpretation?

Ahswer: National physical Israel.

 

[brightfame52]

Ahswer: National physical Israel.

Not possible.