More on Baptism, simple version

[Gideon300]

I go to an Anglican church from time to time. The minster preached on the "Jesus plus" gospel that has been common since the earliest days of the church. To claim that someone is not saved unless they are baptised in water is a "Jesus plus" gospel and is false.

This can be clearly shown from God's word. The clearest, to me at least, is found in Acts 15. I'll not recount the event as we can read it for ourselves. This is the part that refutes the "plus" of baptism:
Acts 15:10 (in reference to circumcision)

"Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Acts 15:28 & 29
"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond these essential requirements: You must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

Even these requirements are post-salvation and not in order to be saved. As Peter said so eloquently, Israel was not able to fulfil God's commandments in spite of having the law and the prophets. Only those who are born again can be free from sin. And who is instantly holy in daily living? That's why we have the blood of Christ to cleanse us when we do sin.

The religious love to put burdens on people. Salvation is still by grace, through faith and not by works. I'll say it again, Christians should be baptised because they are born again, not in order to be born again.

 

[oyster67]

Rituals of remembrance must never be confused with salvation by faith alone in the shed blood of Jesus.

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

 

[ResidentAlien]

I go to an Anglican church from time to time. The minster preached on the "Jesus plus" gospel that has been common since the earliest days of the church. To claim that someone is not saved unless they are baptised in water is a "Jesus plus" gospel and is false.

This can be clearly shown from God's word. The clearest, to me at least, is found in Acts 15. I'll not recount the event as we can read it for ourselves. This is the part that refutes the "plus" of baptism:
Acts 15:10 (in reference to circumcision)

"Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Acts 15:28 & 29
"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond these essential requirements: You must abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

Even these requirements are post-salvation and not in order to be saved. As Peter said so eloquently, Israel was not able to fulfil God's commandments in spite of having the law and the prophets. Only those who are born again can be free from sin. And who is instantly holy in daily living? That's why we have the blood of Christ to cleanse us when we do sin.

The religious love to put burdens on people. Salvation is still by grace, through faith and not by works. I'll say it again, Christians should be baptised because they are born again, not in order to be born again.

Doesn't Acts 15 declare that certain works are still necessary? I mean, not the whole law but certain things. It's still Jesus + works isn't it? Just askin'.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Doesn't Acts 15 declare that certain works are still necessary? I mean, not the whole law but certain things. It's still Jesus + works isn't it? Just askin'.

yes we have made the term “faith “ a substitute for obeying what God said will save our souls . It isn’t a replacement for our actions

The term “have faith “in the Bible most often would be understood as “ be faithful “

we talk about how our works and what we do being seperwte from salvstion. It the Bible doesn’t do that it does this and makes it really plain

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if this is true this in the beginning of Paul’s letter to the Roman Christian church , and it is .

then saying we have faith and our works don’t apply to our eternal judgement is not at all true and is actually keeping a person from taking repentance seriously like that section of Paul’s letter is meant to do or like this section of a different letter

“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul nor any apostle ever taught an unconditional, no work to do gospel that promises salvation to people no matter what they do

faith isnt why we don’t need to obey god

faith is to hear and believe the lord who is telling man how to be saved the result of believing him is always going to be action

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Rituals of remembrance must never be confused with salvation by faith alone in the shed blood of Jesus.

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

brother Jesus said this that you quote for sure but he said this too

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

should we say I believe in Jesus , therefore I don’t need to believe what Jesus said about salvation ?

In other words if I have faith does this now mean I don’t ever need to actually do anything Jesus said about salvation ? I’m already saved because I believe Jesus died so now I don’t need to get baptized or do anything Jesus said regarding eternal life ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Doesn't Acts 15 declare that certain works are still necessary? I mean, not the whole law but certain things. It's still Jesus + works isn't it? Just askin'.

Not "certain works" but certain commandments, which do not impact on salvation. That ye [1] abstain from meats offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from things strangled, and [4] from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:29)

 

[ResidentAlien]

Not "certain works" but certain commandments, which do not impact on salvation. That ye [1] abstain from meats offered to idols, and [2] from blood, and [3] from things strangled, and [4] from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Acts 15:29)

Okay, commandments might a better choice of words; but it just seems odd that Gideon would include the Jerusalem Council as an example of why "Jesus +" isn't sound, when it clearly shows that keeping certain of God's commandments is still required.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Okay, commandments might a better choice of words; but it just seems odd that Gideon would include the Jerusalem Council as an example of why "Jesus +" isn't sound, when it clearly shows that keeping certain of God's commandments is still required.

"Still required" for obedience to God and Christ. So that impacts on sanctification, but not justification (salvation).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Okay, commandments might a better choice of words; but it just seems odd that Gideon would include the Jerusalem Council as an example of why "Jesus +" isn't sound, when it clearly shows that keeping certain of God's commandments is still required.

We have a covenant word it’s what Jesus taught after his baptism.


it isn’t what Moses taught israel before Jesus came into the world.

We belong to this word

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have a mediator and doctrine it’s the gospel the teachings of Jesus Christ the lord offering salvation

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have a word and doctrine it’s what Christ taught in the gospel it’s one of the reasons Jesus was born

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

and it is going to be the words that judge us in the end

The things Jesus taught after he received the spirit of annointing from heaven at baptism is this and it’s required for faith

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel jesus sent into the world is our doctrine and the law of the spirit and light he promised long ago


“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is forever

“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the source of Christian rebirth and life and will never change from the words of Jesus

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

…But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God hasn’t declared non obedience he has given us a new and better covenant word that restores us and redeems us from sin and death it’s what Jesus taught after his baptism about God the father , mankind , his kingdom and eternal life “ the gospel of the kingdom is forever

 

[Magenta]

being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

…But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1 Peter 1:23 plus 1 John 5:4

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Gideon300]

Doesn't Acts 15 declare that certain works are still necessary? I mean, not the whole law but certain things. It's still Jesus + works isn't it? Just askin'.

Thank you for your question, it is a good one.

Absolutely not. John 6:29 (in response to exactly this question)

…Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

The question is, do we have to do do certain works in order to be saved? The answer is no, unless you make believing a work. Which it is not. Everything else is a consequence of being saved. For example, I did not know that drunkeness was a sin from reading God's word. I knew in my conscience before I read it in the Bible. The reason my conscience convicted me was because it had been made alive to God. Before I was born again, getting drunk was my only escape from the meaningless of life without Jesus.

It is obvious from God's word that not every Christian realises the harm of drunkeness, so God's word includes an exhortation to avoid it. For me, I needed to know immediately as it was a threat to my life.

The Christian life is relationship, not regimented and rules based. You cannot fellowship with a stone or a book. The Law is intended to lead us to Christ.
Galatians 3:23-25
…Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.…

In a perfect world, we would not need the Bible. After all, the Author lives within us. The world is not perfect and neither are we. We need the written word to counter Satan's lies and our own self generated notions about life. The danger is that we may turn the Bible into a code of ethics that we feel forced to follow by our own effort. When we come to know Jesus as our life, not just an example to follow, life becomes way easier. He does the motivating and also is the power to do what God requires of us. In fact, God expects nothing from us - but everything from Jesus who dwells within.

Okay, commandments might a better choice of words; but it just seems odd that Gideon would include the Jerusalem Council as an example of why "Jesus +" isn't sound, when it clearly shows that keeping certain of God's commandments is still required.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. A person is born again on the basis of accepting Christ and his death and resurrection. Everything else is irrelevant at the time of conversion.

Some of the instructions given to the non-Jewish Christians don't even apply today. Who is offering meat to idols? Who strangles animals in Western culture? Those two instructions were to avoid offending Jewish Christians.

Again I will say, no one is born again by what they do. It is God's work alone. Our place is to accept what God has done already in and through Christ. Outward holiness is a consequence of salvation, not a means to gain it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Some of the instructions given to the non-Jewish Christians don't even apply today. Who is offering meat to idols?

Why don't you go to India and the Far East and find out? Idolatry is rampant in many parts of the world, and offering food to idols is commonplace.

Also, you are completely off base by claiming that some of the instructions given to Gentile Christians no longer apply. What was applicable then is still applicable. God does not change along with the winds of change.

 

[Gideon300]

Why don't you go to India and the Far East and find out? Idolatry is rampant in many parts of the world, and offering food to idols is commonplace.

Also, you are completely off base by claiming that some of the instructions given to Gentile Christians no longer apply. What was applicable then is still applicable. God does not change along with the winds of change.

You still entirely miss the point. There are no conditions on anyone to be saved except to agree with God's judgement that they are sinners, repent and accept Christ. God does the rest.

No one is saved by not eating meat offered to idols. And how would new Christians know? Were the Christians in Antioch saved before Paul and Barnabus brought back the ruling from Jerusalem? Or were other religious gymnastics required in order to be saved? Not at all. God's will can only be performed by those who are born again.
1 Corinthians 10:27-29
If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat anything set before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if someone tells you, “This food was offered to idols,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience— 29the other one’s conscience, I mean, not your own. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else’s conscience?…

Same Bible. Same apostle. So it is fine to eat meat offered to idols as long as its done in ignorance. And it is not necessary to ask the question either. I've been to many Asian countries. It never occured to me to ask if what I was eating had been offered to idols.

God does not change but His methods may change. Do you obey all the Mosaic food laws? I do not. I read in the New Testament that they no longer apply.

The evidence for being born again is not how well we conform to a set of rules.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death." 1 John 3:14

 

[Nehemiah6]

You still entirely miss the point. There are no conditions on anyone to be saved except to agree with God's judgement that they are sinners, repent and accept Christ. God does the rest.

Those are NOT conditions to be saved but commandments to be obeyed to show that you are saved. So that is a matter of sanctification. Every Christian must obey Christ.

 

[ResidentAlien]

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:14-17

"But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18

 

[Gideon300]

Those are NOT conditions to be saved but commandments to be obeyed to show that you are saved. So that is a matter of sanctification. Every Christian must obey Christ.

Sure, but not all do and no one does all the time. Do people stop being saved because they sin from time to time? My hope is that beleivers who struggle will base their faith on the finished work of Christ, not on how they feel or even how they behave. Anyone who claims to be born again yet loves their sin is kidding themselves.

That does not mean overlooking sin. One of the reasons the church is such a mess is because so much bad behaviour is tolerated. At the same time, Satan is the accuser of the brethren. We do well not to add our voice to his.

 

[WayneKCobb]

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hi Pilgrim,

May I ask you four questions that I might better understand the scriptures you mentioned.
1. What is Hope
2. How does one gain hope?
3. How is faith like hope?
4. How is faith different than hope?

Thank you,
Wayne

 

[heartwashed]

We are clearly saved by grace through faith. Is baptism not a part of this?

Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

In baptism, we are risen with Christ "through the faith of the operation of God."

So, baptism is not an additional thing to faith.

We are told to have faith in the operation of God -- baptism.

In that, in baptism, we have identified with Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection;

and in doing so, we have confessed Christ before men (see Matthew 10:32)

 

[heartwashed]

Sure, but not all do and no one does all the time. Do people stop being saved because they sin from time to time? My hope is that beleivers who struggle will base their faith on the finished work of Christ, not on how they feel or even how they behave. Anyone who claims to be born again yet loves their sin is kidding themselves.

That does not mean overlooking sin. One of the reasons the church is such a mess is because so much bad behaviour is tolerated. At the same time, Satan is the accuser of the brethren. We do well not to add our voice to his.

As long as a person is seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, they are walking in repentance.

Those who fail will get up if they are righteous; even the proverbial seven times.