you are quite right, my mistake! what do you mean by direct offspring? I take offspring to mean children... that's what the nasb uses...
Mormons / Latter Day Saints
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you are quite right, my mistake! what do you mean by direct offspring? I take offspring to mean children... that's what the nasb uses...
Close, and I think Jesus is also saying to them, you are doing things that are so out-of-bounds, that I have no alternative but to disavow you as if I never knew you. You don't want to be in that group of people. You do not want to hear that from your Savior.
that's interesting... spirit children makes sense to me... we have spirits, we are children of God, we are spirit children...physical children, too, i think...
Referring to post 477 the original Greek text "never" means never once at any time meaning infinite i.e. even in the past. (neither pre-birth or post-birth) The word "never" is an absolute negative. If we were "spirit children" in the past, and Jesus knew us then, He would be revealing to us His character that presents false witness, which He is not, for the Bible says He is the same as He was in the past . "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8
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You are right. Now, are you an offspring of God in the flesh. The answer is no. Your flesh and bone body is an offspring of 2 mortals, your father and mother. So your "flesh and bone body" cannot be an offspring of God.
There is only 1 person whose flesh and bone body was an offspring of a mortal woman and God. That person was Jesus.
Because you are an offspring of God, as the scripture says, the only other possibility is that your "spirit body" is an offspring of God. Yes, that is the answer, you are a literally a "spirit child" of God.
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M
Matt1626
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I don't know we're you get that info but my cousin is a cop in Utah and their crime rate is really really low. Yes they do give presence to lds the first thing you are asked in the emergency room is what is your religion
He knew their works, but had no loving relationship with them on a personal basis. It is the same with this conversation. It is obvious that the people that Jesus is talking to are not of God, but have a different Father even though He was carrying on a conversation as He did with the people that He said He "never" knew. It doesn't say that they were possessed by demons either.
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:42-47)
I'm not sure why you would use this scripture to support your position. This scripture supports a pre-existence. If no man can go up to heaven unless he has come down from heaven, then all those who are in heaven were there once before. Even Jesus, who is in heaven. That concept supports my position.
If the scripture said, "no man hath ascended up to heaven except Jesus, because he was the only one that came down from heaven", then the scripture would support your position. But that is not what it says.
No man goes to heaven unless he came down from heaven, even Jesus who is in heaven was subject to that process. To me that is a good scripture to support the pre-existence of men.
Good going, we are spirit children of God and we were in the pre-existence with Him and His Son Jesus. At some point after conception of a mortal person, God breathes into that person the "breath of life" and it becomes a living soul. The phrase "breathes into the mortal person the breath of life" is a metaphorical phrase that is saying that God places this persons existing spirit into their new mortal body.
We go through life with a mortal body of flesh and bone and spirit. At some time, however, everyone dies. When we die, our spirit leaves the mortal body and where does it go? Do you know the answer to this question?
This is the post that I gave the definition of "never" according to the original Greek in Matthew 7:23
I will give you my thoughts about “never knew you” in parallel. There have been numerous times that a friend of mine would have spoken with someone, and after telling me about their conversation and then ask me if I knew them. Sometimes I did, and sometimes I didn't know them. When I was with a gospel group I had the opportunity to play music with Dolly Parton's cousin. Another time I was shopping at the same grocery store that Archie Campbell shopped when Hee Haw was a popular show. One other time we had opportunity to play in the church where Ricky Scaggs' family attended. As I would talk about my experiences and people would ask me “did you know them?” Obviously I would have to answer, “No I never knew them,” even though I knew of them, and also their popularity. Hope that makes sense.
I posted "one rebirth" to compare it with Matthew 7:23.The conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus makes it clear that there is only one rebirth defined in scripture, meaning that we have “never” been “spirit children.” The first would be a baby conceived in its mother's womb, and the second would be “born again” accordingly.
This scripture can also be used to compare the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. Verse 14 is one that I took note of. Being “spirit children” we would have been led by the Spirit of God in order to be the sons of God. Verse 15 also would have been the relationship we “had” with God before were were born in the flesh. If that is a reoccurring relationship after being “born again” I cannot comprehend how the previous relationship would not have been remembered when we receive a new birth in Christ simply because verse 16 confirms to us that we are children of God. The entire chapter is a good read for greater explanation.
Romans 8:13-17
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live .
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry , Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
With the greatest of respect for you and the way the Mormons teach moral standards I cannot accept this doctrine of being conceived spiritually before being conceived physically and then being conceived back again to our preexisting state before we were born physically.
To complete my thought, we can agree that there is no sin in heaven where God dwells. As long as our spirit is fleshly when we are born, the spirit that we once had before birth would have to be the perfect Spirit that was also in Christ.
I rhetorically ask 2 questions. Why were we given another spirit after a physical birth, and where would our original perfect spirit be stored if it isn't God's Spirit?
After birth are we given a spirit apart from God and our own so we can have the mind to reciprocate in a loving relationship with God?
A non-rhetorical question I have, is there an edifying reason for the doctrine of “spirit children”? Please keep in mind that I have had these types of conversations for years because many relatives of mine are of the Mormon religion.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up .
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building , and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to clarify, and then put it behind us. Thank you for responding to my posts.
One more thought that I had in addition to the previous post # 495. There are 2 verses that came to mind illustrating that Jesus was the Son of God before His natural birth, and even before creation.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
But 3 verses later it mentions that Jesus is also the "first born" after His death.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
With that said we know Jesus was born before natural birth.
Another verse can be interpreted as a preexistence also.
Romans 8:29 *For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
According to Calvinism and their doctrine of predestination (which I am not affiliated with either) this could confirm the existence of "spirit children" that I don't think they believe in, but it seems to be discriminatory by *recognizing only those that God foreknew.
In relation to every person preexisting as Christ did, then we would have to put aside the doctrine of being born again knowing that the Bible claims Jesus as the "first born among many." So if we preexisted as "spirit Children" in order to include the "born again" experience plus being born previously as a baby in the natural form Romans 8:29 would be as follows.
For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first and second born among many brethren.
This confirms the scripture and my beliefs (as I have quoted in a previous post in part) that the doctrine of "spirit children" is one of man.
1 Corinthians 15:42-46
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
But 3 verses later it mentions that Jesus is also the "first born" after His death.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
With that said we know Jesus was born before natural birth.
Another verse can be interpreted as a preexistence also.
Romans 8:29 *For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
According to Calvinism and their doctrine of predestination (which I am not affiliated with either) this could confirm the existence of "spirit children" that I don't think they believe in, but it seems to be discriminatory by *recognizing only those that God foreknew.
In relation to every person preexisting as Christ did, then we would have to put aside the doctrine of being born again knowing that the Bible claims Jesus as the "first born among many." So if we preexisted as "spirit Children" in order to include the "born again" experience plus being born previously as a baby in the natural form Romans 8:29 would be as follows.
For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first and second born among many brethren.
This confirms the scripture and my beliefs (as I have quoted in a previous post in part) that the doctrine of "spirit children" is one of man.
1 Corinthians 15:42-46
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
good! I think were making progress...I think acts 17 is talking about our whole aself, including the physical... Paul says God made every person from one blood...which sounds physical to me... and Paul and the poet say we live and move and exist in God...that would include our physical bodies doing that...and those are the two reasons i think Paul and the poet say we are God's children...
well, I accept the term spirit children, i believe we are physical children, too...I haven't seen verses that lead me to believe we exist before birth...not saying they are or aren't there...
"When we die, our spirit leaves the mortal body and where does it go? Do you know the answer to this question?"
My impression is different parts of the Bible present it differently... I like the end of Ecclesiastes where it says the spirit returns to God who gave it...
FYI
For those who are not familiar with the Mormon doctrine the poet that is being mentioned on this thread is Parley Pratt. He was a religious writer and poet. He was one of the publishers of the second edition of the Book of Mormon that included his personal testimony. This second book also mentions the golden plates that were found having the information for Joseph Smith to write the first book of Mormon.
For those who are not familiar with the Mormon doctrine the poet that is being mentioned on this thread is Parley Pratt. He was a religious writer and poet. He was one of the publishers of the second edition of the Book of Mormon that included his personal testimony. This second book also mentions the golden plates that were found having the information for Joseph Smith to write the first book of Mormon.