I said the bible says "sing" (Col 3:16 Eph 5:19)
You said we can have musical instruments, you said it says that here ( --- )
Music in Church?
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I said the bible says "sing" (Col 3:16 Eph 5:19)
You said we can have musical instruments, you said it says that here ( --- )
Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
We are no longer under David, we are under Christ, now show me where Christ in His word said use instruments?
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
You are reading more into it because it does not say I your God condemn musical instruments, that is what you see and not what the scripture says.
I have a question for you because this seems what I am getting from you;
Are you a Paulinian ?
By now both sides have stated their case....far as Blond can tell nobody is giving an inch....So in Love and Brotherhood of the NEW YEAR 2015 Blond is making a request out of love and in peace and harmony. Please see request as pictured below.
In the name of love before you break God's heart think it over
.....................................................................................That is all. Blond out..........
It is called debating, I think they have a area on this site for things other than debating for those who do not like debating
I am christian(ian?)
Is Paul Christ? no, did Paul preach Christ? yes... Do you believe that?
I read the scriptures and try my best to go by them, I don't go above what the scriptures say:
1 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV)
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
How you can be right on commands like baptism, then turn and change the word to make your worship of Him to fill your own belly when it comes to IM (you're forgetting who the audience is) is beyond me...
every vibration in earth's atmosphere produces sound.
every time anyone speaks or sings, they vibrate the air around them. that wave of vibration in turn transfers energy to everything around them, vibrating it.
if you stand near a window and sing, you vibrate that window, playing it exactly like a drum.
if you guys really want to follow this law of yours to the letter, i think you need to stuff socks in your mouths when you sing, else you are playing the whole church building as an instrument.
there is no NT scripture specifically authorizing vibrating the back of the pew in front of you, you know..
You're adding to the word of God again, it only says "sing"
we were never under David. no one has ever said "worship God upon an instrument of ten strings" is a commandment. the take-away from the Psalms and the order of temple worship is that musical instruments are not an abomination in God's sight. not that they are commanded.
i think you're not comprehending the core principle of being "no longer under a schoolmaster" my friend.
it's never been commanded by God not to do these things - only by men. and it's clearly been approved by Him.
have you ever heard about how people who have been in prison for a long time have trouble re-adjusting to being free, living outside of the penal system?
they need someone to tell them it's time to use the bathroom or to eat, or they feel like they can't do these things, because they are so used to living under commandments and ordinances that free people are not under. unless something is specifically commanded for them to do, they live in fear thinking they can't do it. simple things like going to sleep or walking outside, that free people take for granted.
The LORD sets the prisoners free;
the LORD opens the eyes of the blind.
(Psalm 146:7-8)
the law doesn't say "pull your oxen out of the pit on the Sabbath day"
the Lord of the Sabbath says which one of you won't do this?
we, we are FREE!!
you're free to offer your asceticism to the Lord too
and actually, it's beautiful, how the Bride preens herself in her chamber, waiting to meet the groom.
"should i put a flower in my hair? what if he doesn't like flowers? maybe i shouldn't."
oh daughter, He loves you for you, not for the flower in your hair or the lack of one!
we were never under David. no one has ever said "worship God upon an instrument of ten strings" is a commandment. the take-away from the Psalms and the order of temple worship is that musical instruments are not an abomination in God's sight. not that they are commanded.
i think you're not comprehending the core principle of being "no longer under a schoolmaster" my friend.
it's never been commanded by God not to do these things - only by men. and it's clearly been approved by Him.
have you ever heard about how people who have been in prison for a long time have trouble re-adjusting to being free, living outside of the penal system?
they need someone to tell them it's time to use the bathroom or to eat, or they feel like they can't do these things, because they are so used to living under commandments and ordinances that free people are not under. unless something is specifically commanded for them to do, they live in fear thinking they can't do it. simple things like going to sleep or walking outside, that free people take for granted.
The LORD sets the prisoners free;
the LORD opens the eyes of the blind.
(Psalm 146:7-8)
the law doesn't say "pull your oxen out of the pit on the Sabbath day"
the Lord of the Sabbath says which one of you won't do this?
we, we are FREE!!
you're free to offer your asceticism to the Lord too
and actually, it's beautiful, how the Bride preens herself in her chamber, waiting to meet the groom.
"should i put a flower in my hair? what if he doesn't like flowers? maybe i shouldn't."
oh daughter, He loves you for you, not for the flower in your hair or the lack of one!
Forget about the old law, forget about David, show me in the new better covenant where we are commanded to do anything but sing in worship? if you add to it, you worship according to your will, not His...
you're pretending the Psalms aren't part of the word of God again
Your pretending we are still governed by the Psalms...
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
The reason I asked that is because Paulinians is a nickname given to those who follow Paul's teaching's over everything else in the bible as if he had supreme authority over all. They preach and teach mainly from his words as if they are different then God's or our Lord Jesus Christ words.
The act as if he gave more wisdom and knowledge about salvation then what the Lord already taught. Which in truth all they are doing is forming a different gospel message by a misunderstanding of his teachings. Paul himself even said he could not bring to us a different gospel message or a different Jesus then what was already taught by the Lord.
Which is why we have church denominations that base their whole traditions on what Paul said, telling people about abstinence, misusing long hair being wrong on a man, and so on.......
If God never said it was wrong in the past, if the Lord Jesus in His 3 1/2 years earthly ministry never said it was wrong, then he can not say it is wrong.
Church history shows that instruments were dropped when the Romans came in with their heresies, and they also wanted to weed out all pagan usage in worship. To much focus was being taken off Christ, and put back on materialistic things. So they wanted to bring the focus back to Christ, by eliminating all things deemed excessive in the church.
Do a history study and you will see this mentioned, however being from both a Catholic and Baptist background I know from our own history studies the non usage of instruments was not for the first 1,000 years of the church history as falsely claimed.
They got that stat only from the main stream churches, and not from the smaller individual private churches.
you're pretending the Psalms are a "burden which neither we nor our fathers could bear"
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Ephesians 5:19 declares, "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord." The phrase "making melody" comes from the Greek word "psallontes" which means "to rub or touch," "to twitch or twang." It was commonly used in Greek to refer to playing a stringed musical instrument. Whatever the case, the Bible neither forbids or commands the use of musical instruments in church. Therefore, the church has freedom to use them if it feels led of God to do so.
you keep saying church history shows usage of using instrumental music until Roman heresies......
Show me... I would like to see it, fact is it is the opposite, some claim Clement of Alexandria was the first, but Ive not seen that either, show me anything that proves your claim.
It also refereed to the plucking of a carpenters string, so in other words, "Psallo" describes a stringed tool or instrument or anything stringed, but like baptizo does not say what one is baptized in and must be gathered by the context, the same is true with Psallo, and Paul says the instrument played is the heart, to twang the heart strings... it is a metaphor much like Acts 2:38 where the heart was pricked.
That my friend is will worship... you cannot find authorization for it, making it of your own will, "will worship"
another interesting thing i found digging into the history is that early believers patterned their worship after what the Jews did in the synagogue, and the Jews themselves did not use musical instruments in synagogues to differentiate what they did there from what was done in the temple - where music was in fact a part of worship; a sacrifice of praise.
Christ, in the most clear definition of worship given in the NT, said the Father's true worshipers worship in spirit and truth, and not any longer in the temple or in some high place. so the restriction of locality is removed, because we are now being built into His true temple. the Jews today that reject Him have no temple, and the orthodox among them will not allow music in the synagogues because they are not the temple. we have no such lack of locality in Him!
if we are now His temple, is what is approved as praise in the temple not approved as praise in us?
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
You can try to twist the meaning all you want, as you did not give the whole word even used.
You said Psallo, when the word is Psallontes, so be careful when you do that because in Greek that can change the whole meaning of the context. And as word Baptizo, it does say if you use the whole definition the immersion, dipping, and so forth is in water. And we know it was in water by what Peter later said in Acts 10:47.
Any way the issue is psallontes which means to rub, touch, twitch, or twang and in Greek history was referred to playing a stringed musical instrument. So to take that all in even if you want to try and cancel some instruments out, this would show that some instruments were still allowed.
If the Holy Spirit drives that church to use musical instruments in worship, you have no right to forbid it.......
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Yes I would love to post documents on here on church history and the usage of musical instruments and what doctrines they taught, like there is a lot of evidence the early church taught one can lose salvation. But it would take up to much space and time to post and for others to read through it all.
I think some just want others to do the leg work for them.
What we are not governed by the entire word of God all of the pages in the book? Since when is God's word not important or a portion of it? I thought the Bible - the entire word of God that not one jot or tittle would change until all things were finished and Jesus hasn't come back yet so I don't think all things are finished as of yet. I don't know why I bother typing this as no one will read or take it to heart.... Oh well God knows I tried.... I sing too with or without instruments in or out of church.....It is all in praise to God who accepts it when there is love in my heart going out to Him.....sigh.....
because the very rocks will cry out if we don't.
drink offerings were poured out over the coals on the altar and evaporated away to the Lord alone, while other offerings were dedicated to God and used to feed the priests and their households. both are to the Lord! i've been thinking alot too about what efficacy there is in bouncing the truth off hard heads, and i believe all those things done for the sake of the sake of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ are not done in vain
actions testify to reactions and the whole interaction witnesses of the truth
you are at the least encouraging to those that stand with you in Him, and i can't measure what you are at the most