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Believer08
Guest
Oh gosh…you’re right..I had no idea that is what he meant. Thanks for letting me know! I do not believe we are to obey the ministry or death (2 Cor. 3:7).
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Believer08
Guest
and praise be to God for that.The relationship between grace, faith, works, and salvation remains the same regardless which works you think that we should do.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be doer of the Law of Moses is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from from not being a doer of it and it is contradictory for someone to want salvation from sin while not wanting to be a doer of the Law of Moses.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and it is contradictory for someone to want to be a follower of Christ while not wanting to be a followers of what Christ taught.
The God of Israel has given instructions through the Law of Moses for how to know, love, glorify, believe in, and testify about Him by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, so those who want to do those things will follow his instructions for how to do them.
2 Corinthians 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, it involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.
In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Mosaic Law is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, it a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so God's gift of eternal life in Christ is being a doer of the Mosaic Law, which again is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
So 2 Corinthians 3:6-7 needs to be understood in a way that it is in accordance with these other verses rather than a way that contradicts them. If obeying the letter referred to correctly doing what God has instructed and that leads to death, then that would mean that God would be misleading us and shouldn't be trusted, but rather the Bible repeatedly says that God leads us to life. The fact that the Mosaic Law is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it.
A gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it. Likewise, God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).
You are Believer 08.
Do you believe in obedience to the Savior to be saved or do you believe in the Savior instead?
In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so God's gift of eternal life in Christ is being a doer of the Mosaic Law, which again is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God instead of trusting in what He has instructed or to think that we should believe in God's word instead of believing in God's word made flesh. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while obeying God's law had absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation, Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.
Doing what He tells me takes work. Obeying the laws is not always easy.
Everlasting life is a free gift offered by God's grace. It has nothing to do with obedience to the law.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 11
When it comes to receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life, I try to be clear not to conflate the two.
Every pastor would do that when I was growing up so I was confused until I was in my mid teens. Then a saved person clearly described the Bible response to the gospel.
Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for reasons that are compatible with grace. For example, a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it.
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone.
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3), and which again is the gift of salvation by grace through faith.
In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.
In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being made to be a doer of good works in obedience to God's law is nevertheless a central part of God's gift of salvation.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to contribute anything towards earning our salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).
It's interesting isn't it? In our community we will encounter the occasional fields of debate wherein it is said, following Sabbath's calendar, and obeying the laws of God, is legalism. And not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus.
On the other field we will hear it argued that in order to be saved we must obey Jesus.
On the other field we will hear it argued that in order to be saved we must obey Jesus.
That is not what Rom means. "Grace is God's willingness to use his power and ability on our behalf when we don't deserve it". By grace are you saved through faith. We "obey" because we love Him... but one has to get to know Him.. how do you love someone you don't know.
Now I can only speak for me. If I have to obey to be saved.. man I am lost. This is where I fall flat on my face asking Him to forgive me and thank Him for doing it ALL.. He loves us.
Now I can only speak for me. If I have to obey to be saved.. man I am lost. This is where I fall flat on my face asking Him to forgive me and thank Him for doing it ALL.. He loves us.
Sir, what exactly do you believe that I must do to be saved?
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Believer08
Guest
We are to believe and obey the gospel to be saved (Rom. 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8) and we are to continue to walk in the light (1 Jn. 1:7) and follow Jesus (Jn. 10:27-28) because we have been saved. Without faith, obedience is worthless. I do not believe obedience on its own saves. I believe Jesus saves me as I submit/obey to His authority (Mt. 28:18), looking to Him to save me by submitting/obeying in doing the Father’s will (Mt. 7:21), as I cannot save myself by myself.
So far, none of you legalists have answered a simple question: what do you mean by saved?
You should try reading the New Testament sometime. You have no understanding of the purpose of the Law or the true meaning of salvation.
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Believer08
Guest
Acts 2:37 - "what shall we DO?"
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.40 ¶ And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 9:6 - "Lord, what do you want me to DO?"
What did Jesus have Saul to do concerning to get his sins washed away? Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 16:30 - "Sirs, what must I DO to be saved?"
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
To be saved, you must believe the gospel (Acts 15:7), believe He’s the Son of God (Acts 8:37), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; cf. Mt. 10:32-33), repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16, 33, etc etc)
Is it possible to be saved without believing the gospel? No.
Is it possible to be saved without believing He’s the Son of God? No.
Is it possible to be saved without confessing Jesus as Lord? No.
Is it possible to be saved without repenting and being baptized for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus? No.
Is it possible to be saved without believing and being baptized? No.
Please tell me what you understand what it means to be saved? It is not possible to discuss your false doctrine otherwise.