Must Shortly Come To Pass

[zone]

TomL:
do you share and or administer the Lord's Supper (Communion)?
literal bread and wine?
zone

 

[Elizabeth619]

A second major view is amillennialism, which denies that there is any literal Millennium or reign of Christ on earth. The millennial reign of Christ is reduced to a spiritual reign in the hearts of believers. This reign is either over those on earth who put their trust in Him or over those in heaven. Both the amillennial and postmillennial views must interpret Revelation 20 in a nonliteral sense. Often there is wide difference among amillenarians in their interpretations of various passages in the Book of Revelation. Amillennialism historically had its first important advocate in Augustine who lived in the 4th and 5th centuries. Before Augustine, it is difficult to find one orthodox amillenarian. Modern advocates include such respected 20th-century theologians as Oswald Allis, Louis Berkhof, William Hendriksen, Abraham Kuyper, R.C.H. Lenski, and Gerhardus Vos.

I am going to throw out the symbolic meaning of Revelation and throw in the LITERAL meaning of this chapter.

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain"

And angel comes from Heaven holding a LITERAL key and chain and gets ahold of the devil(who is literally a dragon) and throws him in to the abyss where he is locked up for literally 1000 years.

There are also literal thrones for literal souls who had their heads cut off. They come back to life and reign for 1000 years. This first resurrection must mean they literally rose from the dead. So apparenly only the ones who reign with Christ are the ones who LITTERALLY were beheaded.

after 1000 years a literal dragon who is Satan will roam will be released from prison and round up troops for battle. They march to Jerusalem and surround it. Fire comes from Heaven and this big dragon, a beast and false prophet are thrown in to a lake of buring sulfer forever and ever.

Then the great white throne of judgement happens where all the dead are judged.


Now I am confused. All the literal beheaded souls are reigning with Christ. They have already been raised from the dead LITERALLY, but later on in the chapter it says EVERYONE who has died will face judgement. Is John contradicting himself?

The devil, beast and false prophet are already thrown in to a lake of burning sulfur FOREVER which happened before the great white throne of judgement so they were already cast out and didn't face the great white throne since they are burning in sulfur. So how can they be cast in to a lake of fire?

 

[Stephen63]

I'm not aware of any place in Scripture that says no one can be raised from the dead to do any work for God before the major judgment. As a matter fact, many dead saints were raised when Christ was resurrected from the dead. In Revelation, there are 24 elders around the throne of God worshiping the lamb and throwing their crowns at his feet. It's in the Book.

 

[Elizabeth619]

I'm not aware of any place in Scripture that says no one can be raised from the dead to do any work for God before the major judgment. As a matter fact, many dead saints were raised when Christ was resurrected from the dead. In Revelation, there are 24 elders around the throne of God worshiping the lamb and throwing their crowns at his feet. It's in the Book.

They were raised WITH Christ and their souls were taken to heaven. The bible doesn't say anything about the dead being raised physically to reign before judgement.

 

[Stephen63]

There are also literal thrones for literal souls who had their heads cut off. They come back to life and reign for 1000 years. This first resurrection must mean they literally rose from the dead. So apparenly only the ones who reign with Christ are the ones who LITTERALLY were beheaded.

Now I am confused. All the literal beheaded souls are reigning with Christ. They have already been raised from the dead LITERALLY, but later on in the chapter it says EVERYONE who has died will face judgement. Is John contradicting himself?

Matthew 27:52-53 [SUP]52 [/SUP]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [SUP]53 [/SUP]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

You seem to have made a point that no one could be resurrected to do anything before their judgment. I was just pointing out that it happened several times in Scripture.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I just have a question to this: The first resurrection was dying in sin, and coming alive in Christ

Is the "dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, bound" locked up in the bottomless pit NOW?

Are the ones that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. . . .This is NOW?

Is this is the first resurrection? or is the first resurrection after the thousand years are finished?. . .

I see that I have asked more than one question. . . .Please bear with me!

 

[Stephen63]

I just have a question to this: The first resurrection was dying in sin, and coming alive in Christ

Is the "dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, bound" locked up in the bottomless pit NOW?

Are the ones that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. . . .This is NOW?

Is this is the first resurrection? or is the first resurrection after the thousand years are finished?. . .

I see that I have asked more than one question. . . .Please bear with me!

No, none of this is now. Note the Scripture:
Revelation 20:4-6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since we do not see any of these people reigning today with Christ, and neither is it in the history books, it has not happened yet.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No, none of this is now. Note the Scripture:
Revelation 20:4-6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Since we do not see any of these people reigning today with Christ, and neither is it in the history books, it has not happened yet.

Well, I honestly didn't think so but what was said "The first resurrection was dying in sin, and coming alive in Christ" confused me.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Matthew 27:52-53 [SUP]52 [/SUP]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [SUP]53 [/SUP]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

You seem to have made a point that no one could be resurrected to do anything before their judgment. I was just pointing out that it happened several times in Scripture.

I was wrong here. The bible doesn't say their souls were taken to heaven. All it says is they rose from the dead. In their physical body. It doesn't say anything else about them.
I'm glad you pointed that our tho but I have to go to lunch now. Ttyl. I will return!

 

[1still_waters]

It is apparent that the apostles taught the soon return of Christ in their lifetime. Otherwise, the mockers would have had nothing to base their derision on.





There is no doubt, the apostles taught the return of Christ in their lifetime. So what went wrong? Nothing. What's wrong is the futurist's interpretation.

Actually what they predicted was the coming of Jesus in judgement on Jerusalem/Judea in their lifetime.
People miss that when they misconstrue coming on clouds language.
They assume that's second coming language.
That's coming in judgement language language.

 

[1still_waters]

God who lives in eternity and does not have the same experience of time as we do would plausibly have a very different definition of 'soon' from ours...

preterists have the same problem as the people peter was writing to when he had to explain that God was not 'late'

What other words would GOD have used if he had meant to say near/soon/at hand?

He WAS speaking to them in terms they could understand.

 

[zone]

I just have a question to this: The first resurrection was dying in sin, and coming alive in Christ

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

John 11:26
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.

Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life

~

Jesus IS The First Resurrection:

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies

we have part, or take part in His Resurrection when we are raised with Him now:

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

John 11:26
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them.

Revelation 14:13
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life

I'm not sure why you posted all these verses. . .to me they have nothing to do with a literal resurrection. I understand that spiritually I have passed from death to life being promised eternal life by faith in Christ. . .

 

[zone]

unless Paul and the others literally died and came back to life, and returned to earth just to write this letter, the first resurrection is now.

Ephesians 2:6
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

 

[zone]

I'm not sure why you posted all these verses. . .to me they have nothing to do with a literal resurrection. I understand that spiritually I have passed from death to life being promised eternal life by faith in Christ. . .

the first resurrection is only mentioned once.
in all of scripture.
guess where?


what does it mean by first?
that means there is a second.
what you call a "literal" one.

millennialism has two also (at least).

what if the first resurrection is that spiritual resurrection you just said you knew you had taken part in?

 

[zone]

anyways....dat's enuff.
bye for now.

 

[Stephen63]

Don't swat at the Bee-ber.

Imagine that. A pest has another pest for pet.

 

[Laodicea]

Daniel 2:38-40 KJV
(38) And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
(39) And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
(40) And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

This is 4 literal kingdoms starting with Babylon and the 4th being Rome who fell in 476 AD.

Daniel 2:41-45 KJV
(41) And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
(42) And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
(43) And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
(44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
(45) Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

After 476 AD Rome was divided and this divided kingdom according to the prophecy continues until the next literal kingdom which will be God's literal kingdom which will destroy all kingdoms. It is the coming of Christ that sets up this literal kingdom.

 

[Laodicea]

In other words, you have to make something up to fit your theology. Where is it written that those who pierced him would be in heaven when they see him the clouds, or having been resurrected. You should understand the danger of adding to Scripture instead of accepting what is written. See Revelation 22.18-19.

I never said they would be in heaven it says people both good and bad will be resurrected.

John 6:44 KJV
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When is the last day?

 

[Laodicea]

That's because, A) Your premise is wrong. No one said anything about anything being fulfilled before 70 AD. The coming of Christ did not happen before 70. B) For the rest, I don't have an answer. I do not know everything. But perhaps someone else does.

Revelation 16:19-21 KJV
(19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

It is because you cannot answer, no matter how much you twist the Bible this is future, it has not happened. This lines up with Daniel 2