my last argument for obedience

[ember]

just didn't live up to some people's standards.....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If the theoretical person in your response claims that a saved person's lifestyle will reflect no obedience overall, I would disagree with them. A changed nature means changed attitudes, purpose and actions. The changed nature will inevitably show through. It will take time for some areas of their lives to be brought into submission by God, though. I'm not appointed to be their fruit inspector either.

It's openly taught here by some that one's behavior has no bearing on one's salvation. To them salvation is an issue of one's nature and is irrespective of any measure of obedience (as reflected in behavior).

 

[sparkman]

I think where people go off the rails is calling the outworking of salvation, fruit. A plant labors to produce fruit; it doesn't just happen passively. Grace doesn't preclude work.

Ephesians 2: 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

I agree with what you said, but I would be more inclusive by stating that it is God who works in the person both to WILL and to WORK.

Somehow fear and condemnation theology people leave out the fact that it is God who is working within the person to change the will. Somehow they think they are the Holy Spirit who needs to convict people...maybe they believe the Holy Spirit took the day off. That's where I have the issue.

That, and the focus on self-effort rather than the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. I do not see hardly anyone talking about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit when it comes to sanctification. Instead, their message seems to be oriented on self-effort. There's no real focus on the Holy Spirit when it comes to sanctification amongst most. It is sad really.

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm not sure I am answering your question, but my position is that the overall lifestyle of a person who is saved, viewed across their entire life, will be one that reflects general obedience as a FRUIT of salvation. The fruit is produced by God in that person's life.

Am I saying that they aren't going to have long periods of struggling with a sin issue? No. I went through a long period of struggling with a serious sin issue. God didn't give up on me. God is faithful to those he has covenanted with, and brings them to repentance.

David was an example of that. Abraham was an example of that. Lot was an example of that. Samson was an example of that.

I probably would have written all of them off if I was a fear and condemnation theology person, but I am not. I have total confidence in God's ability to finish what he started, in spite of the person and his futility.

If the theoretical person in your response claims that a saved person's lifestyle will reflect no obedience overall, I would disagree with them. A changed nature means changed attitudes, purpose and actions. The changed nature will inevitably show through. It will take time for some areas of their lives to be brought into submission by God, though. I'm not appointed to be their fruit inspector either.

Well said....the Lord will be faithful to those that belong to Him and that He is united with by the Holy Spirit within them.

There are some Christians that live by their flesh all their lives by exhibiting any one of the works of the flesh. A person could be covetous ( like coveting anything that someone else has ) all their life while on this earth or take a person that continuously slanders other people - that is walking in the flesh too...or there are also those that cause strife and divisions. These are all works of the flesh - they are just not the "biggie sins" like adultery, murdering..etc.

The Lord will chastise ( child-train ) these people until they repent or I some extreme cases give them over to satan for the destruction of the flesh and yet their spirit is still saved as Paul talked about in 1 Cor 7. This seems to be a very rare thing case and only someone with spiritual authority under the direction of the Lord Himself is authorized to so this.

 

[sparkman]

It's openly taught here by some that one's behavior has no bearing on one's salvation. To them salvation is an issue of one's nature and is irrespective of any measure of obedience (as reflected in behavior).

I'm not sure of the particular individuals or remarks. If you are saying that obedience and works continue salvation, that isn't a position I would hold. If you are saying that obedience and works are the fruit of salvation, and that they will always occur in a saved person, I would agree. The real issue with me is whether someone thinks that believers face impending possible condemnation, not whether works exist or not. If a person claims that Christians are still subject to condemnation, then I would be against that view per John 5:24 and Romans 8:1. Salvation does produce the fruit of obedience and works, though. The salvation has already occurred.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

see, here is a works-based mindset: a fruit tree has to work to produce fruit. no,no,no. a apple tree produces apples because that what it does. a truly saved person will do good works, strive to not sin, etc.. because they ARE SAVED.

a grape vine that claims to be an apple tree is not really an apple tree, as people claim to be Christians but are really not.

IMO you're demonstrating the mindset that has replaced GOD with a grace in which there are no laws (commandments).

Grace doesn't preclude law; it precludes being justified by law. If we labor for GOD in the faith and knowledge that he is the one justifying us, then that is doing the will of GOD.

 

[FreeNChrist]

IMO you're demonstrating the mindset that has replaced GOD with a grace in which there are no laws (commandments).

Grace doesn't preclude law; it precludes being justified by law. If we labor for GOD in the faith and knowledge that he is the one justifying us, then that is doing the will of GOD.

Just more advocacy for dead works of the flesh. Mere wood, hay and stubble, good for nothing but the fire.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree with what you said, but I would be more inclusive by stating that it is God who works in the person both to WILL and to WORK.

Absolutely. Otherwise it just becomes dead religion.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is Matt 7 in context ..Jesus was talking about false prophets...context is everything..we can take any scripture out of it's context and make it "appear" to say whatever we want.

Matthew 7:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

And yes..every true believer in Christ will have fruit and what is the fruit of the life of Christ?

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

What happens is that if we don't see the type of fruit that we have - then that person is not a Christian because they didn't produce fruit the same way or in the same timing as I did. This is classic religious fruit inspection and Pharasee-ism at it's finest.

 

[sparkman]

Well said....the Lord will be faithful to those that belong to Him and that He is united with by the Holy Spirit within them.

There are some Christians that live by their flesh all their lives by exhibiting any one of the works of the flesh. A person could be covetous ( like coveting anything that someone else has ) all their life while on this earth or take a person that continuously slanders other people - that is walking in the flesh too...or there are also those that cause strife and divisions. These are all works of the flesh - they are just not the "biggie sins" like adultery, murdering..etc.

The Lord will chastise ( child-train ) these people until they repent or I some extreme cases give them over to satan for the destruction of the flesh and yet their spirit is still saved as Paul talked about in 1 Cor 7. This seems to be a very rare thing case and only someone with spiritual authority under the direction of the Lord Himself is authorized to so this.

One of my pastors explained to me as a young believer that we aren't even aware of all our sins..it's like we are in a totally dark room with thick blinds and God allows a thin sliver of light to fall on the floor, exposing some of our sins like dirt on the carpet..we clean that up, and then God expands the light in the room slowly, showing us more sin. We clean that up, and it goes on and on like that.

You are right, though..if anyone thinks that they will be sinless by the end of their lives, they are crazy. I am reminded of grumpy older people who don't show the respect and patience that they should be showing toward younger people. I've done it myself sometimes. And, there are issues in our lives that God hasn't shown us, mercifully. I believe if he threw the blinds wide open, we'd collapse into a heap and probably wouldn't be able to continue on, if we were exposed to his full holiness and how far we fall short of it.

God is merciful that way

That's why I find sinless perfectionists to be hilarious. They set up 3 inch hurdles for themselves and think they are some kind of star athletes because they can jump over those. They obviously don't understand God's holiness or they wouldn't be making such boastful claims. Jesse Morrell, Jed Smock and those Pelagian/Finneyist/Moral Government Theology guys are like that. They are some of the most boastful, condemning people I've seen (I won't call them Christian because I don't think many of them are true believers yet). I think they believe those who only follow the letter of the Ten Commandments are not sinning, otherwise they would not be making such boastful claims about being sinless.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not sure of the particular individuals or remarks. If you are saying that obedience and works continue salvation, that isn't a position I would hold. If you are saying that obedience and works are the fruit of salvation, and that they will always occur in a saved person, I would agree. The real issue with me is whether someone thinks that believers face impending possible condemnation, not whether works exist or not. If a person claims that Christians are still subject to condemnation, then I would be against that view per John 5:24 and Romans 8:1. Salvation does produce the fruit of obedience and works, though. The salvation has already occurred.

IMO obedience and work produce fruit; they are not fruit. The plant labors, the root and light provide the resources, and fruit is produced.

We are not, and cannot ever be, justified (in a forensic sense) by any work we do. Once we realize this and believe that GOD has justified us, then we are free to labor according to his will.

So this simply boils down to one issue: abiding in the vine. If we abide in the faith and knowledge that GOD justifies us, then we will labor and bear fruit. Trying to be justified by what we do is not abiding in the vine.

 

[Mec99]

There is a big difference between obeying what God says and Works.

Many people confuse and blur the line between obeying what God has said and doings works that men demand.

A good example is some here teach Salvation is received by being Baptized. Since God wants us to be Baptized they have now demanded we be Baptized or else we cannot receive Salvation. They claim this is being obedient to God when in fact its is doing Works.

We need to be careful on what some say in here. Just remember, not everyone who says Lord, Lord has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

 

[Grace777x70]

One of my pastors explained to me as a young believer that we aren't even aware of all our sins..it's like we are in a totally dark room with thick blinds and God allows a thin sliver of light to fall on the floor, exposing some of our sins like dirt on the carpet..we clean that up, and then God expands the light in the room slowly, showing us more sin. We clean that up, and it goes on and on like that.

You are right, though..if anyone thinks that they will be sinless by the end of their lives, they are crazy. I am reminded of grumpy older people who don't show the respect and patience that they should be showing toward younger people. I've done it myself sometimes. And, there are issues in our lives that God hasn't shown us, mercifully. I believe if he threw the blinds wide open, we'd collapse into a heap and probably wouldn't be able to continue on, if we were exposed to his full holiness and how far we fall short of it.

God is merciful that way

That's why I find sinless perfectionists to be hilarious. They set up 3 inch hurdles for themselves and think they are some kind of star athletes because they can jump over those. They obviously don't understand God's holiness or they wouldn't be making such boastful claims. Jesse Morrell and those Pelagian/Moral Government Theology guys are like that. They are some of the most boastful, condemning people I've seen (I won't call them Christian because I don't think many of them are true believers yet).

I hear ya'...

What I find funny about "confessing sins" is that we usually don't really confess the real sin.

Example:..I go to the store and steal food ( I confess that I stole food to God ..)

The "sin" of stealing the food is just the "fruit" of my real sin....which is....I do not trust in my loving heavenly Father to care for me as He said He would - I'm taking care of things myself.

So, It is impossible to really confess our sins....if we had to rely on that procedure.....we'd be goners and hell-bound for sure!! Thank God for His forgiveness of sins by the blood of Jesus and that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone!

 

[Grandpa]

Absolutely. Otherwise it just becomes dead religion.

So the person labors to cause God to work and to will in their lives?

 

[FreeNChrist]

IMO obedience and work produce fruit; they are not fruit. The plant labors, the root and light provide the resources, and fruit is produced.

We are not, and cannot ever be, justified (in a forensic sense) by any work we do. Once we realize this and believe that GOD has justified us, then we are free to labor according to his will.

So this simply boils down to one issue: abiding in the vine. If we abide in the faith and knowledge that GOD justifies us, then we will labor and bear fruit. Trying to be justified by what we do is not abiding in the vine.

He actually thinks he produces the "fruit of the Spirit". And he calls me delusional.....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is a big difference between obeying what God says and Works.

Many people confuse and blur the line between obeying what God has said and doings works that men demand.

A good example is some here teach Salvation is received by being Baptized. Since God wants us to be Baptized they have now demanded we be Baptized or else we cannot receive Salvation. They claim this is being obedient to God when in fact its is doing Works.

We need to be careful on what some say in here. Just remember, not everyone who says Lord, Lord has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

I don't think anyone here teaches this. I think a more accurate description is that they believe remission of sins occurs in water baptism. Scripture does seem to bear this out. So in that case, it's not work done to try to justify one's self, but simply an act of obedience to what the lord said.

 

[Grandpa]

He actually thinks he produces the "fruit of the Spirit". And he calls me delusional.....

I guess we have to go through Galatians.

Again.

 

[Mec99]

Actually HeRoseFromTheDead you have taught this in other chat threads on here. You did say one cannot receive Salvation until he has been Baptized.

But now you are trying to deceive us.

Which makes us wonder if you have ever accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior since you see nothing wrong with lying.

 

[Grace777x70]

All true believers in the gospel of the grace of Christ say that behavior does matter.....

[video=youtube;yPFZv08ZCoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPFZv08ZCoY[/video]

 

[PaulMack]

You are right Mec99, HeRoseFromTheDead did state in one of the threads that has been removed that no one could receive Salvation until they were Baptized.

Is it because he is confused or is it because he is one of the False Christians who are trying to deceive us?

After seeing this i cannot trust anything HeRoseFromTheDead says anymore.