I was unable to post my reply to nwl on the other thread so I decided to just start another thread with my response.
Ok nwl, you now have my full attention so I will be addressing some of the things you stated. Notice the very first word at Hebrews 1:1. It is "God" and then it says, "after He/God spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways." First of all keep in mind that the Old Testament saints did not have the "FULL" revelation of God according to Romans 16:24-25.
In other words, God earlier spoke through the prophets etc, but now He has spoken through His Son Jesus because Jesus is a greater messenger than the prophets? This is backed up by what Jude said at vs3, "Beloved while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation,. I felt it necessity to write to you appealing that you earnestly contend for the faith WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVERED TO THE SAINTS."
Now, you ask me the following question? "When Hebrews 1:1,2 states the Father created the world through his son, who should rightly be labelled the originator or source of creation, (A) the person who creates the world through someone, or (B) the person the Father uses to create all things through?"
Since you teach that Jesus is Himself a created creature what role did He play in creation (or what did He create) since I gave you Isaiah 44:24 where God says, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." So how do you reconcile that with the question your asking me? You even said words have meaning in their context so since God created alone and by Himself, where does Jesus Christ fit in? You see nwl, I know where Jesus fits in because I know how to reconcile this apparent contradiction.
I also ask you to think about the angel of the Lord issue in which you responded by saying Jesus was part of the group etc. That's right, remember I said the first word at Hebrews 1:1 is "God." So where else did God personally speak to the OT saints? Remember I stated that the angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. This is what He says to Hagar at vs9. "Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress and submit yourself to her, "I WILL greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count." Notice it says, " I Will" and not "GOD WILL" multiply your descendants.
Now look at Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abraham and said to him, "I am God Almighty, Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU EXCEEDINGLY."
Here's my question? Is the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16 the same "being" who literally and physically appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty multiplying Abrahams descendants at Genesis 17:1,2?![Eek! :eek: :eek:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok nwl, you now have my full attention so I will be addressing some of the things you stated. Notice the very first word at Hebrews 1:1. It is "God" and then it says, "after He/God spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways." First of all keep in mind that the Old Testament saints did not have the "FULL" revelation of God according to Romans 16:24-25.
In other words, God earlier spoke through the prophets etc, but now He has spoken through His Son Jesus because Jesus is a greater messenger than the prophets? This is backed up by what Jude said at vs3, "Beloved while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation,. I felt it necessity to write to you appealing that you earnestly contend for the faith WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVERED TO THE SAINTS."
Now, you ask me the following question? "When Hebrews 1:1,2 states the Father created the world through his son, who should rightly be labelled the originator or source of creation, (A) the person who creates the world through someone, or (B) the person the Father uses to create all things through?"
Since you teach that Jesus is Himself a created creature what role did He play in creation (or what did He create) since I gave you Isaiah 44:24 where God says, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." So how do you reconcile that with the question your asking me? You even said words have meaning in their context so since God created alone and by Himself, where does Jesus Christ fit in? You see nwl, I know where Jesus fits in because I know how to reconcile this apparent contradiction.
I also ask you to think about the angel of the Lord issue in which you responded by saying Jesus was part of the group etc. That's right, remember I said the first word at Hebrews 1:1 is "God." So where else did God personally speak to the OT saints? Remember I stated that the angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. This is what He says to Hagar at vs9. "Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress and submit yourself to her, "I WILL greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count." Notice it says, " I Will" and not "GOD WILL" multiply your descendants.
Now look at Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abraham and said to him, "I am God Almighty, Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU EXCEEDINGLY."
Here's my question? Is the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16 the same "being" who literally and physically appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty multiplying Abrahams descendants at Genesis 17:1,2?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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