MYSTERY, BABYLON

[shroom2]

That doesnt even make sense.

Believers are PART of the Church. Who are the believers that are left behind?

They are people who will believe after we're gone.

 

[Strangelove]

They are people who will believe after we're gone.

So the church goes and then everyone else is left and they will all believe?

 

[Abiding]

I think when dismantling a futurist you have to do a handful of things..

1. Point out the near/soon wording of Revelation 1 and 22.
2. Point out time period language Jesus uses in the Olivet Discourse to show that the destruction of the temple/Jerusalem was expected in their time.
3. Point out that the destruction in AD 70 of the temple/Jerusalem is a HUGE BIG deal. The type of deal that would make Joe Biden make certain remarks.
4. Point out the historical events that line up with Daniels weeks.

Unfortunately I don't have the patience to do that in this kind of format. I'm not a huge copy and paster, or quote and answer backer.

Dont matter how you do it a futurist will stay a futurist till there is divine intervention. Didnt
take me long to see that.

 

[shroom2]

So the church goes and then everyone else is left and they will all believe?

I didn't say that, did I?

Some will, many won't.

 

[shroom2]

Dont matter how you do it a futurist will stay a futurist till there is divine intervention. Didnt
take me long to see that.

Gee, I've never been called a futurist before....

This forum has labels for everything.

I prefer to think of myself as a bible believing Christian.

 

[TheRealTruth]

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I used to think that this referred to the Catholic church. It seemed like a good fit. But now I'm wondering if it is referring to the whole world, as a system. I just finished reading Jeremiah and it is making me think Babylon is a much stronger foe. Babylon was able to remove Gods chosen people from the land.

Jeremiah 51:53-58


53Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD.
54A sound of a cry cometh from Babylon, and great destruction from the land of the Chaldeans:
55Because the LORD hath spoiled Babylon, and destroyed out of her the great voice; when her waves do roar like great waters, a noise of their voice is uttered:
56Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely requite.
57And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts. 58Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The broad walls of Babylon shall be utterly broken, and her high gates shall be burned with fire; and the people shall labour in vain, and the folk in the fire, and they shall be weary.


I think Babylon is the world and the enticement of riches and fame that the world can give. What do you think??

To be honest it seems very so that it is America. Have you ever read Habakkuk? if not then you would not see that America is Babylon the GREAT.Before I continue, I will explain why it is called Babylon the GREAT. The reason so is because, it did things that the ancient Babylonians did except greater let us take a look. Habakkuk 1:6"For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's."
Now let us observe that verse. It said the Babylonians will take possessions not theirs and dwellings, now notice how America is in Iraq for oil, and even other lands for resources. If that is not enough proof look at the U.S. embassy, how many countries does the U.S. have an embassy in? All! let us look at some more verses. Verse 7"They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves." God said by their own doing they will bring their disasters upon themselves. I will use a few more verses as my proof let us skip down a bit. Verse 10"And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it." God said the ancient Babylonians scoffed at other kings and nations they had no respect or regards for them. Now let us look at America, Hiroshima(Japan), Iraq and many African nations. America has been in many wars because they scoff at the nations do to their great power. I can go on through the whole Habakkuk proving it is America but I know most people will not read all of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think when dismantling a futurist you have to do a handful of things..

1. Point out the near/soon wording of Revelation 1 and 22.

I don't see how this helps.

2. Point out time period language Jesus uses in the Olivet Discourse to show that the destruction of the temple/Jerusalem was expected in their time.

No one denies this. In fact Daniel prophesied it. He said it would be done by the PEOPLE of the prince to come (this prince is not Christ) which would happen after the 69th week.

3. Point out that the destruction in AD 70 of the temple/Jerusalem is a HUGE BIG deal. The type of deal that would make Joe Biden make certain remarks.

Who has denied this was not a HUGE BIG DEAL??

4. Point out the historical events that line up with Daniels weeks.

It would help if you could point out the tings that have not happened yet. and then explain why they are there if it is fulfilled.

Unfortunately I don't have the patience to do that in this kind of format. I'm not a huge copy and paster, or quote and answer backer.

Maybe it would help if some would open their hearts to just see why they believe the way they do. And not try to get your point across at all costs.

It is like a legalist who calls people who believe in salvation by faith alone teach a false gospel. because they teach one can claim salvation and they can sin all they want they are not saved. I know Zone does not believe this. I know I don't I assume you don't. But a legalist will not open his heart. There are parts of us who do teach this (licentious) but they are so closed minded they think we all believe this.

I have already proven I do not follow what many dispensations believe. But you all talk to me like I believe just the way they do.

Does it not get frustrating when a legalist calls you a liar when you continue to say you don't believe this. Imagine how I feel. And you all get frustrated??

 

[Abiding]

Gee, I've never been called a futurist before....

This forum has labels for everything.

I prefer to think of myself as a bible believing Christian.

Im sure you are...dont let the labels bug ya..we all get one
saves time.. have some iced tea...mmm

 

[1still_waters]

So the church goes and then everyone else is left and they will all believe?

No see..you gotz it all wrong..See Jesus comes like three times..the first time he comes..but then he's gotta like come back again cuz his wheel barrel wasn't big nuff for the first load..but then after that load, he waits 1000 years, so those who went in the first and second loads can build wheel barrels to come back the third time n bring all them that live for a 1000 years...........

Then after that come back tour, the Eagles, Garth Brooks, Simon and Garfunkle convince him for a fourth time around. Just for good measure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you've called me a JEW HATER AND AN ANTIMSEMITE.
and you're not the only one. i don't hold it against you.

No Zone I didn't. I used your type of argument. When you said I get my belief from Scofield against you. I believe your belief comes from antisemitism. It was born out of the catholic church by known serious antisemitism. in order to prove the church replaced isreal and are nor recipients of all her covenants.

so let me guess. it is perfectly fine for you to say I get my belief from scofield. But it is NOT OK for me to tell you where I think your belief comes from??

THIS RELIGION IS SATANIC.

this is posted to PROVE THAT the religion of Judaism is BABYLONIAN PAGANISM, is antithetical to Moses and the prophets, is MASQUARADING AS MOSES & THE PROPHETS and is antichrist on every level.

this RELIGION has DUPED Christian Zionists into setting up the WOMAN who says she sits a Queen and is NO WIDOW.
this RELIGION has been SECRET AND HIDDEN for over 1,000 years.

this is to reinforce the Biblical identification of JERUSALEM AS THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS.

I TAKE NO PLEASURE IN THIS.

but let's get SERIOUS.

Yes it is satanic. If you want to just tell us how satanic it is. I would have no argument. But your not. Your using to attempt to prove a belief I spent 30 years of my life forming. Which has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATIZON, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE HEBREWS is wrong.

It is your motive I am questioning. not the content. And yes. I am quite offended. and very hurt! especially when it comes from someone who claims to be my friend!

 

[zone]

No Zone I didn't. I used your type of argument. When you said I get my belief from Scofield against you. I believe your belief comes from antisemitism. It was born out of the catholic church by known serious antisemitism. in order to prove the church replaced isreal and are nor recipients of all her covenants.

so let me guess. it is perfectly fine for you to say I get my belief from scofield. But it is NOT OK for me to tell you where I think your belief comes from??



Yes it is satanic. If you want to just tell us how satanic it is. I would have no argument. But your not. Your using to attempt to prove a belief I spent 30 years of my life forming. Which has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATIZON, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE HEBREWS is wrong.

It is your motive I am questioning. not the content. And yes. I am quite offended. and very hurt! especially when it comes from someone who claims to be my friend!

i am your friend EG
i'm not posting anything against YOU.
i've been posting the same stuff since i got here.

i love you EG. never stopped that.
zoney

 

[AnandaHya]

just cuz I can

then the red herring for good measure....

 

[zone]

No see..you gotz it all wrong..See Jesus comes like three times..the first time he comes..but then he's gotta like come back again cuz his wheel barrel wasn't big nuff for the first load..but then after that load, he waits 1000 years, so those who went in the first and second loads can build wheel barrels to come back the third time n bring all them that live for a 1000 years...........

Then after that come back tour, the Eagles, Garth Brooks, Simon and Garfunkle convince him for a fourth time around. Just for good measure.

what about Garth Brooks' doppleganger? does he get LEFT BEHIND?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 11
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

not 1900 years future.
Paul said NOW.

So now what. we want to take one verse and prove a point??

My God zone what happened to you??

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]Israel’s Rejection Not Final


11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]


Paul is talking future here zone.

When is the time of the gentiles complete?? Has it happened? Has ALl the houise of Israel been saved?? when did it happen zone? I need to know. because if it happened and I did not know about it. I want to know truth. When did the times of the gentiles come to an end and ALL the house of Israel get saved?

\

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake,

And they are.. And everything you are posting about them is true. Why? Becuause they have still rejected their messiah. Thus THEY ARE MY ENEMY!

Again, what do you think I am a jew lover??


but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


so what am I suposed to believe? that NO GENTILES were saved in the OT law? Davids mother in law was a gentile. how did she get saved if this was the time of the jews?? what made it the time of the jews.

Paul was a jew. Yet he says here it has been given to the gentile because of Israels rejection. Is paul counted out because he is a jew?

Paul is NOT talking about induviduals here. He is talking about a GROUP OF PEOPLE.

he has said here now twice that ISRAEL a GROUP OF PEOPLE will repent. come back to God. ALL WILL BE SAVED, they will be grafted back in. and god will show mercy to them AS A PEOPLE.

when did these people as a group all get saved? when were they grafted back i? (paul spoke future) when were the gentiles grafted back out?

Paul makes it clear here. It can get no easier. or any more direct.

concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Who are they? Paul is one of them, Why is paul talking about them? Paul even affirms the covenants made to the fathers are still intact. There election still stands. How can it stand when they are cast out???

why, It does not save them. Paul is not talking about redemption here. He is talking about Gods covenant with them as a nation! why can't you figure this out?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So wait, i don't get, after all the arguments, has anybody answered his question?.. Is the Great Babylon or whatever referred to here the world or not?

No, The general consensios is either israel, if you take a spiritual view of prophesy. Or the roman church if you take a literal view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

they need a new breed of TRIBULATION SAINTS.

Wow, it is like I don't even know who you are

 

[zone]

So now what. we want to take one verse and prove a point??

My God zone what happened to you??

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]Israel’s Rejection Not Final


11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:

find out what FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES COME IN MEANS.

"And so all Israel will be saved"

means AND IN THIS SAME WAY....WHAT WAY? LIKE ELIJAH WAS TOLD - I HAVE A REMNANT - IN THAT WAY, the gracious keeping of a remnant.
not every single jew who ever lived. THAT'S NOT WHAT all MEANS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No see..you gotz it all wrong..See Jesus comes like three times..the first time he comes..but then he's gotta like come back again cuz his wheel barrel wasn't big nuff for the first load..but then after that load, he waits 1000 years, so those who went in the first and second loads can build wheel barrels to come back the third time n bring all them that live for a 1000 years...........

Then after that come back tour, the Eagles, Garth Brooks, Simon and Garfunkle convince him for a fourth time around. Just for good measure.

This ain't even right. If you want to mock, thats fine, but at least get it right.

jesus does not come back three times more. he comes back once more.

 

[zone]

Wow, it is like I don't even know who you are

WHAT?
WHY?
i have been against pretrib for 8 years.
and trying to defeat dispensationalism too (futurism)

Daniel 9 is fulfilled.

i love you EG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To be honest it seems very so that it is America. Have you ever read Habakkuk? if not then you would not see that America is Babylon the GREAT.Before I continue, I will explain why it is called Babylon the GREAT. The reason so is because, it did things that the ancient Babylonians did except greater let us take a look. Habakkuk 1:6"For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's."
Now let us observe that verse. It said the Babylonians will take possessions not theirs and dwellings, now notice how America is in Iraq for oil, and even other lands for resources. If that is not enough proof look at the U.S. embassy, how many countries does the U.S. have an embassy in? All! let us look at some more verses. Verse 7"They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves." God said by their own doing they will bring their disasters upon themselves. I will use a few more verses as my proof let us skip down a bit. Verse 10"And they shall scoff at the kings, and the princes shall be a scorn unto them: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it." God said the ancient Babylonians scoffed at other kings and nations they had no respect or regards for them. Now let us look at America, Hiroshima(Japan), Iraq and many African nations. America has been in many wars because they scoff at the nations do to their great power. I can go on through the whole Habakkuk proving it is America but I know most people will not read all of it.

I was taught this as a kid growing up. My church was positive not only that america would become babylon because of being a melting pot of all nations. But at one time they even thought we replaced Israel as a client nation. God would protect us from asll our enemies. Give us rain. No enemy could touch us. And the 5 cycles of discipline in lev 26 now had been given to america as Gods nation on earth. In fact I remember when we went to iran to rescue our prisoners. and something happened and we ran like our tails wer cut off. that proved it. Because God said to israel. You will run when your enemy does not run after you" I actually bought into this stuff!

This is why I started to study this whole thing. People started talking and convincing me this was not true. So I stopped listenign to people. and spent almost ten years really studying. And found out much of what I was taught as a kid was either error. or half truths.