New Age: New Apostolic Reformation

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A

Abiding

Guest
As I looked at someone in the room I began to understand what he was thinking just as he had been able to understand me. When I looked at the Lord I began to understand Him in the same way. We continued to use words, but the meaning of each one had a depth that no dictionary could have ever captured. My mind had been freed so that its capacity was multiplied many times over. It was exhilarating beyond any previous experience… Jesus is the Communication of God to His creation. His words are spirit and life, and their meaning and power far exceeds our present human definitions. Human words are a very superficial form of the communication of the spirit. He made us able to communicate on a level that far transcends human words…We cannot be who we were created to be until we regain this, and we can only attain it when we are freed in His presence

I call this familiar spirits
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
Found this interesting from Joyner's website....

"On the Authority of Scripture
We believe in the Divine inspiration and authority of the 66 books of the Holy Bible as the complete canon of God's testimony to mankind. We are committed to esteeming Scripture as the very Word of God, inerrant in its original form. We do not accept any doctrine which contradicts Scripture.

We understand that there are many practices and doctrines that are considered orthodox which do not contradict the Scripture, but which are not directly addressed in His Word. We are committed to giving liberty in the belief and practice of these teachings, but we will endeavor to maintain the simplicity of the biblical testimony and its stated practices as we are given grace to perceive them. We do not accept any spiritual experience as having its source in the Holy Sprit that does not have a precedent in Scripture. We do not accept any revelation, vision, dream, prophecy or discernment as truth which contradicts Scripture, or cannot be verified by it. We do not believe that any other writings have the same authority as the canon of Scripture. "


Statement of Faith : MorningStar Ministries

still researching...
 
Jul 3, 2011
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work on this one:)


At the end of The Final Quest, Joyner has a conversation with Paul, in which Paul says the following.

“True humility is agreement with the truth. Do not fear. My letters were true, and they were written by the anointing of the Holy Spirit. However, I was given so much, and I did not use all that I was given. I, too, fell short. Everyone here has fallen short, except One. But you must especially see this about me, because many are still distorting my teachings because they have a distorted view of me.”… “I so appreciate the grace of the Lord to use my letters as He has. But I am concerned with the way many of you are using them wrongly. They are the truth of the Holy Spirit, and they are Scripture. The Lord did give me great stones to set into the structure of His eternal church, but they are not foundation stones. The foundation stones were laid by Jesus, alone. My life and ministry are not the example of what you are called to be. Jesus alone is that. If what I have written is used as a foundation, it will not be able to hold the weight of that which needs to be built upon it. What I have written must be built upon the only Foundation that can withstand what you are about to endure; it must be used as the foundation. You must see my teachings through the Lord’s teachings, not try to understand Him from my perspective. His words are the foundation. I have built upon them by elaborating on His words. The greatest wisdom, and the most powerful truths, are His words, not mine.”
Curious to say the least

In these statements, Joyner carefully weaves the following argument. Paul was a sinner like all of us. He fell short of his calling. Therefore, Paul’s revelation is not sufficient for us today. We need more.
I didnt get that by reading the above quote

This form of argument suffers from an irrelevant conclusion. Paul’s sin does not imply that his writings are not sufficient. In fact, Paul’s sin has nothing to do with the sufficiency of scripture. The scriptures are sufficient because they were authored by God’s superintending sovereign power and are revealed to sinners through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
I would agree with this, but i did not get that Joyner was saying Paul failed or gave insufficient revelation
 
A

Abiding

Guest
this would take all day, between 70 books of false teaching woven in truth its
not possible to write every false statement. But a few more can be shown to
show he isnt one to follow, not where he is headed.

His blue/gray war dream is very interesting. And is rebuted by a charismatic from
austrialia i believe.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
false prophets dont work like that, seldom are they overt, its drip drip drip, then end result is robbery, and
their deed is done. And that talk with Paul was more like a glassful to me
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I personally dont think testing is just looking at a few things. I like to see both sides. Not
just those who oppose, but those also for. A test should be honest. Just like any science.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
does God have some "misses" when it comes to prophecy? what does God say about not listening to prophets who have been proven to be false... mmmm 4runner this looks to contradict scripture to me. this is NOT how Biblical prophecy works....

"We have a policy of being careful not to toot our own horn because we know that God gives His grace to the humble, and we want His grace more than anything. Even so, I am very concerned about those who are so overwhelmingly negative about the prophetic that they completely overlook the positive. We have quite a positive track record in the prophetic, and it is getting better all the time. Tens of thousands of people, unknown numbers of churches, ministries, and even whole movements, have been dramatically and positively affected by those with prophetic gifts in our ministry. Our developing prophetic people have had some misses, as well as our most mature ones. Even so, how would someone like Mark McGuire feel if, after his brilliant baseball career, everyone remembered him in the light of a single strike out in some obscure game? That is the way many prophetic people feel."

Response to Charisma's article by Rick Joyner : MorningStar Ministries

if the prophet has proven to be false one should not listen to them, not cover up their mistakes and call it a learning process. For the Holy Spirit would not anoint and raise up a false prophet.

Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Lamentations 2:14
Your prophets have seen for you False and deceptive visions; They have not uncovered your iniquity, To bring back your captives, But have envisioned for you false prophecies and delusions

Ezekiel 22:28
Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD had not spoken.


alright I'll keep reading and listening to him but I must say I prefer Spurgeon's sermons myself...
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
lol i just realize that Rick Joyner is correcting Steve Strang of Charisma magazine who is definitely NAR. Dissension among the ranks?

interesting...

"I have profound differences with some of the basic philosophies of journalism exhibited by Charisma, especially the way that they carelessly quote others, writing hearsay without confirming its accuracy. This is in conflict with clear mandates of Scripture such as I Timothy 5:19, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses." Even if one is not a leader, or elder, any Christian is one of God's children. I think the last thing we should ever want to do is gossip or slander even the least of His little ones for as we do to them, we are doing to Him (see Matthew 25:40). We should be careful not to do this to anyone, even the enemies of the gospel, because the most powerful weapon that we have is truth, and we must not compromise it for any reason."- Rick Joyner
 
U

unclefester

Guest
what???
he claims to have met paul???


help Abiding...link me please.

supposedly Paul said: "My life and ministry are not the example of what you are called to be. Jesus alone is that. If what I have written is used as a foundation, it will not be able to hold the weight of that which needs to be built upon it"

???

God help us

O ye of little faith........(in modern day apostles and prophets) :rolleyes: Found this an interesting link. It's lengthy but an interesting review of The Final Quest by Rick Joyner. Here's just a section of it worth noting. What a nightmare these people are creating "in God's name". Nothing short of astonishing that crowds are flocking to and embracing this nonsense. Just a taste of Joyner's "prophetic vision(s)".

The Final Quest


“At each level there were arrows of Truth scattered about which I knew were left from those who had fallen from that position (many had fallen from each position). All of the arrows were named after the Truth of that level.”

p.28 “Since the enemy could not hit us on the higher levels with its arrows, swarms of vultures would fly above us to vomit down on us, or to carry demons who would urinate or defecate upon the ledges, making them very slippery.”

Comment: Beside this being disgusting it is unbiblical and just downright ridiculous.

“Our swords grew after we reached each level, but I almost left mine behind because I did not seem to need it at the higher levels. I almost casually decided to keep it, thinking that it must have been given to me for a reason. Then, because the ledge I was standing on was so narrow, and becoming so slippery, I drove the sword into the ground and tied myself to it while I shot at the enemy. The voice of the Lord then came to me, saying: “You have used the wisdom that will enable you to keep climbing. Many have fallen because they did not use their sword properly to anchor themselves. “ No one else seemed to hear this voice, but many saw what I had done and did the same.”

Comment:Joyner has become a leader in this war even though he admits he does not know what he is doing. Imagine having a vision with yourself in it and being the hero. are we to believe he is climbing “levels” and in a fierce battle he almost leaves his sword behind? All this stretches ones credulity.

His aim becomes better “ Soon we were hitting the demons with almost perfect accuracy. Rage ascended from the enemy army like fire and brimstone. I knew that the Christians trapped in that army were now feeling the brunt of that rage. Some became so enraged that they were now shooting at each other. Normally this would have been very encouraging, but those who suffered the most were the deceived Christians who were in the camp of the enemy. “

“The arrows of Truth would seldom penetrate the vultures, but they hurt them enough to drive them back.”

Comment:Truth doesn't seem to be to powerful in his vision. One can only ask what is? The Bible describes Jesus as grace and truth revealed and the word as truth, that the truth sets one free (from falsehood). 2 Cor.10:3-6 our warfare is against false knowledge and we find our most powerful weapon is the word of God (truth). Eph.6:10-18 mentions it as our sword. As a matter of fact all the armor we are to have on and use daily is to Joyner the lower level.

p.29 ..”on this level I caught up to Faith, Hope and Love, which before I had only been able to see from a distance. Here I was almost overpowered by their glory. ...When they touched my sword, great bolts of brilliant lightning began flashing from it. Love then said, “Those who reach this level are entrusted with the powers of the age to come.”

Comment:Really! . Here Joyner says he is bestowed power beyond anything given before. Nowhere does the Bible teach this. This phrase occurs only at Hebrews 6:5 is preceded by the phrase “and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.”The powers of the age to come are reserved for the AGE TO COME. There is no level to climb literally or metaphorically.

“The “Galatians Two Twenty” level ...We decided not to use the arrows of truth until we had destroyed all of the vultures, because the cloud of depression they created made the truth less effective.”

Comment: If this is beginning to take on the life of fantasy you may be getting closer to reality than he is.



 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
hey fester that sounds like a chapter out of sci-fi novel,

I like sci-fi novels but it makes me sad when I meet people who believe in those fantasies. ever tell you about the warlock I meet at the bookstore who drank actual blood and bought a knife for each of his "friends" in case he needed to kill them?

spooky...

i kind of lose his number after that revelation but he was not adverse to attending church...wonder what that says about certain churches..
 
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Abiding

Guest
I think ill stand on the word. Rick can go get vomited on if he wants, and walk on slippery ledges.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
hey fester that sounds like a chapter out of sci-fi novel,

I like sci-fi novels but it makes me sad when I meet people who believe in those fantasies. ever tell you about the warlock I meet at the bookstore who drank actual blood and bought a knife for each of his "friends" in case he needed to kill them?

spooky...

i kind of lose his number after that revelation but he was not adverse to attending church...wonder what that says about certain churches..
I enjoy a good sci-fi every now and then too :) I still catch an original episode of Star Trek here and there .....even though I've seen all of them at least a dozen time before. I know.....it's dorky....lol That warlock fella sounds like a real charmer. Now that'd be a way to get back at mean ole' dad, huh ?....lol My guess is if he was telling you all that, he's wearing the label for attention. Negative attention is better than none for some people I spose :)
 
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unclefester

Guest
I think ill stand on the word. Rick can go get vomited on if he wants, and walk on slippery ledges.

Geez Abiding ....... where's your "faith" ? :rolleyes:
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
Now that'd be a way to get back at mean ole' dad, huh ?

mmmm....that is another story entirely...lets say early on I looked to my Heavenly Father much more then my earthly one for guidance and support.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
O ye of little faith........(in modern day apostles and prophets) :rolleyes: Found this an interesting link. It's lengthy but an interesting review of The Final Quest by Rick Joyner. Here's just a section of it worth noting. What a nightmare these people are creating "in God's name". Nothing short of astonishing that crowds are flocking to and embracing this nonsense. Just a taste of Joyner's "prophetic vision(s)".

The Final Quest


“At each level there were arrows of Truth scattered about which I knew were left from those who had fallen from that position (many had fallen from each position). All of the arrows were named after the Truth of that level.”

p.28 “Since the enemy could not hit us on the higher levels with its arrows, swarms of vultures would fly above us to vomit down on us, or to carry demons who would urinate or defecate upon the ledges, making them very slippery.”

Comment: Beside this being disgusting it is unbiblical and just downright ridiculous.

“Our swords grew after we reached each level, but I almost left mine behind because I did not seem to need it at the higher levels. I almost casually decided to keep it, thinking that it must have been given to me for a reason. Then, because the ledge I was standing on was so narrow, and becoming so slippery, I drove the sword into the ground and tied myself to it while I shot at the enemy. The voice of the Lord then came to me, saying: “You have used the wisdom that will enable you to keep climbing. Many have fallen because they did not use their sword properly to anchor themselves. “ No one else seemed to hear this voice, but many saw what I had done and did the same.”

Comment:Joyner has become a leader in this war even though he admits he does not know what he is doing. Imagine having a vision with yourself in it and being the hero. are we to believe he is climbing “levels” and in a fierce battle he almost leaves his sword behind? All this stretches ones credulity.

His aim becomes better “ Soon we were hitting the demons with almost perfect accuracy. Rage ascended from the enemy army like fire and brimstone. I knew that the Christians trapped in that army were now feeling the brunt of that rage. Some became so enraged that they were now shooting at each other. Normally this would have been very encouraging, but those who suffered the most were the deceived Christians who were in the camp of the enemy. “

“The arrows of Truth would seldom penetrate the vultures, but they hurt them enough to drive them back.”

Comment:Truth doesn't seem to be to powerful in his vision. One can only ask what is? The Bible describes Jesus as grace and truth revealed and the word as truth, that the truth sets one free (from falsehood). 2 Cor.10:3-6 our warfare is against false knowledge and we find our most powerful weapon is the word of God (truth). Eph.6:10-18 mentions it as our sword. As a matter of fact all the armor we are to have on and use daily is to Joyner the lower level.

p.29 ..”on this level I caught up to Faith, Hope and Love, which before I had only been able to see from a distance. Here I was almost overpowered by their glory. ...When they touched my sword, great bolts of brilliant lightning began flashing from it. Love then said, “Those who reach this level are entrusted with the powers of the age to come.”

Comment:Really! . Here Joyner says he is bestowed power beyond anything given before. Nowhere does the Bible teach this. This phrase occurs only at Hebrews 6:5 is preceded by the phrase “and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.”The powers of the age to come are reserved for the AGE TO COME. There is no level to climb literally or metaphorically.

“The “Galatians Two Twenty” level ...We decided not to use the arrows of truth until we had destroyed all of the vultures, because the cloud of depression they created made the truth less effective.”

Comment: If this is beginning to take on the life of fantasy you may be getting closer to reality than he is.
hey Fes.
really, what words are there for this?
heartbreak? astonishment? disgust?

maybe one word: eschaton?

all this daily talk of sins of the flesh (never quite get around to saying what those are or who here does or doesn't admit to committing sin)...and yet this person, this KoM (and 1,000s like him) is given a pass, no....a red carpet inside the church.

and surely these mystery schoolers are laughing their heads off at night in their darkened lodges.

i wonder on that Day if it will be the reformed tax collector who duped that one last customer; that converted gambler who stumbled and threw the dice a few times after repentence - or people who AMEN and support guys like Rick Joyner (actively or through cowardice, ashamed of the Gospel, too fearful to defend and contend), who opened the gates to their sheepfolds for these guys... who will have more to answer for.

who can say?

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

thnaks for slogging through that Fes (saved me the Gravol)
love you
zone.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Are Today’s Prophets Dangerous?

Sign-gift dogma teaches that every congregation must receive unique and particular anointing(s) from each one of these five ministry offices.

It is in fact impossible for any church to genuinely develop apart from these specific impartations. This has been drummed into toe heads of virtually all sign-gift congregations since 1948 and it is widely accepted. Because virtually all congregations believe they must receive from the Lord via these final two restored ministries the false prophet has a readymade home in every city in practically every country.

When an individual has been seduced into following a pied-piper prophet they are on very dangerous ground indeed. It will cost them spiritually, because while they believe they are on the frontlines of spiritual warfare they have been taken captive by our enemy long ago and now are simply exhibiting the enthusiastic antics of the monkey cage. Not only is there loss of a genuine meaningful walk with Christ now (which is the only one that counts) but the loss of future spiritual reward at the reward seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

There is also the terrifying, yet distinct possibility of hearing:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

Here we find people standing face to face with Christ and what do we see? People pointing to their works, even works done in His name. (19) These are power people, signs and wonder workers, folks who prophesied in Jesus’ name, cast out demons in His name and did many wonderful works, again in His name. These were not your rank-n-file low wattage Lutherans, frozen chosen Presbyterians or mundane Methodists. No these sound like the so-called “eagle saints” of Joel’s Army. Is Jesus impressed? Does He applaud their mighty works (in His name)? Jesus does not deny what they have done, nor does He say that He once knew them but now had forgotten them. No He says the most chilling words that can be uttered “I NEVER knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Those who presume to stand up and declare themselves to be prophets of the Living God are in extreme spiritual danger and need to quickly repent of their presumptuous sin (Psalms 19:13) Equally those who have rejected the Bible for a now word from a prophet is being spiritually misled now and is in danger of eternal loss.

Joel’s Army Discernment Ministries International
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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It is NOT about FREEDOM, it IS about DOMINION

“The NEW BREED of Christian is poised to take over the earth, precinct by precinct. God’s Army is rising up. It is time to put on the militant garb. The glint in the eye becomes fixed as the exhilaration of the hour sweeps through the masses. They can make a difference! The world has been waiting with bated breath for this LAST DAY GENERATION. False prophets in their midst are caught in sin, under discipline, yet their tapes sell to believers of their false prophecies. The call for unity is the common cause bringing them from every denomination. They are calling their unity “revival.” After all, when they have set up the Kingdom here on the earth – they will have fulfilled the mandate given to Adam to subdue the earth. A new sound is heard in the land. The music gets louder and the beat gets stronger (even bringing in rock, metal, and funk) but oddly enough the lyrics are always the same! – The choruses proclaiming the triumphant song of the conquerors!” “The Kingdomizers Have Arrived!” Discernment Newsletter, May/June 1992

Note to Herescope readers: What follows may be the most important article ever published by Discernment Ministries in its 21 year history. The first edition of the Discernment Newsletter, published in May 1990 began chronicling the activities of a group of men calling themselves “prophets” and “apostles,” claiming to have extra-biblical revelation and calling to build an elite army to take over the Earth. This obscure cult infiltrated Pentecostal circles with its doctrines, but it wasn’t until these “Kansas City Prophets,” as they were called, connected with…

C. Peter Wagner from Fuller Theological Seminary, that they gained great momentum and helped to form the basis of what Wagner calls “The New Apostolic Reformation” (NAR). By 1991, in a little booklet titled Joel’s Army by Jewel Grewe, she warned about the extreme Dominionist doctrines of these men. The heresies of this movement continued to gain momentum, especially through the evangelical television media. Nevertheless, most of the leaders were not readily recognized in the mainstream evangelical world.

This coming month all is about to change. These NAR leaders are having a great big “coming out party” on May Day in Washington, D.C. These New Order of the Latter Rain cult leaders are going to be standing prominently alongside Christian Right and Republican Right leaders in a great convergence that positions them front and center stage. Their esoteric Dominionist doctrines are rapidly becoming integrated into the entire purpose of this event, albeit cloaked in the rhetoric of “saving America” patriotism. And herein lies the problem. For under the guise of moral causes, these men intend to change more than the declining culture of America. They intend to build the Kingdom of God on Earth, “sphere” by “sphere,” nation by nation.

http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/13/christian-right-fuses-with-apostolic-dominionism/
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
By Dr. Orrel Steinkamp
The Plumbline, May/June 2010


In the last Plumbline,[1] I detailed the vast pervasive reach of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and its myriads of affiliates around the globe. From that directory of affiliates we saw a voracious appetite for interlocking organizations. At some point C. Peter Wagner (Convening Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles[2]) decided rapid church growth Dominion[3] over society could be accomplished inside a democratic process and without establishing a full blown theocracy. Wagner and Company decided to employ the infiltration of churches, denominations (behind the scenes), expansion of cell churches, etc.[4]

In addition Church Growth strategies employ the “reclaiming” of the 7 spheres of culture, now named by “revelation” The 7 Mountains of Culture, to take over business, government, media, arts, education family and religion.[5] In Wagner’s book The Church in the Marketplace, he points to the importance of hither-to-unknown Market Place Apostles.[6] Indications are that he is well along and has millionaire “apostles” in place. He calls for a gigantic wealth transfer from the unrighteous to the righteous to finance Kingdom advance.[7]

But Jesus left no doubt that “my kingdom is not of this world.”[8] Jesus alone can consummate the kingdom when He comes on the clouds in power and great glory. Until that time the kingdom grows in the hearts of men and women (wheat among tares). Neither does the Kingdom start and end with Uber-American patriotic Christian politics. Having lived overseas for decades, I know that Christians in other countries often look at American Christian politics in bewilderment. The kingdom of God is not identified with political might and control even as Jesus came not to be a political messiah in this first advent.

Only Jesus the King can rule after His return, resurrection of believers, the final judgment and a new heavens and a new earth.

The Great Tea Party Convergence

Forays by NAR Apostles into the political scene in America have been until recently sparse. But Lou Engle, the bobble head (ala Jews and the Wailing Wall) Apostle,[9] who has his own ministry to youth called “The Call,”[10] has been politically active in pro-life and homosexual issues.[11] Some months ago he was able to pray for Gingrich and Huckabee with the laying on of apostolic hands.[12] But very recently the political stars seem to have come suddenly into alignment.


http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/13/christian-right-fuses-with-apostolic-dominionism/