New Jerusalem Question

[p_rehbein]

Revelation, Chapter 22:

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

When the new earth is come, and His City (the New Jerusalem) comes down where He will reside with the saints forever, WHY are there "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters" outside of the Gates? I always thought that such would be in the lake of fire. Not on the new earth.

Gill's Commentary says:

Verse 15​

For without are dogs ,.... That is, without the holy city are such persons who are comparable to dogs for their filthiness, impudence, and voraciousness, as are persecutors, heretics, and apostates, Matthew 7:6 . Some think Sodomites are intended, as in Deuteronomy 23:18 . So Abarbinel and others interpret the law; and who abound in the Roman jurisdiction, called therefore Sodom, Revelation 11:8 and indeed all wicked men, who will be cast out into outer darkness, may be signified hereby. The Jews say F11 Raya Mchimna in Zohar in Numb. fol. 95. 2. ,

"when a man dies, if he be worthy (or righteous) he descends in the likeness of a lion to receive "his" soul, but if not, in the likeness of "a dog", concerning which David says, Psalm 22:20 .'

And sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters ; characters of the antichristian party, who will have no place in this city, or glorious kingdom of Christ; See Gill on Revelation 21:8 .


And whosoever loveth and maketh a lie ; who loves both to invent and tell lies, and loves to hear them told by others; meaning more especially the doctrinal lies of antichrist, which are spoken in hypocrisy by him, and his followers are given up to believe.

I find it odd that such as these should even be on the new earth, and outside of the Gates of the City of New Jerusalem. I have read through several Commentaries, but can not find a definitive explanation concerning this oddity.

 

[arlev]

So, would you run the question by us? Thanks.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Good question. Maybe it's referring to dogs and sorcerers in the lake of fire. They are not dead, but they can't get out of their predicament to be able to enter the holy city

 

[tablet123]

Revelation, Chapter 22:

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

When the new earth is come, and His City (the New Jerusalem) comes down where He will reside with the saints forever, WHY are there "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters" outside of the Gates? I always thought that such would be in the lake of fire. Not on the new earth.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It is obvious they are not right outside the gate in the general vicinity.

But it means these type of people will not have access to enter the New Jerusalem.

Which the reference of dog is because of their behavior.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

This heaven shall melt with fervent heat and the earth will be burned up and the works of it.

And that is because they are both tainted with sin and all sin must be purged with fire.

There is no restoration of this heaven and earth.

Which is why the wicked go to the lake of fire because all sin must be purged with fire.

Which there is no restoration of the wicked.

There will be a new heaven and earth wherein dwells righteousness which is a place where sin has never been and sin will never be.

The saints and angels will remember nothing prior to the New Jerusalem for it is associated with sin and rebellion.

Psa 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Hell and death are in the lower parts of the earth which the earth shall be cast in to the lake of fire.

The devils and wicked people will be confined to the earth which will be burned up.

So they are not outside the New Jerusalem.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

And the wicked cannot escape hell, the lake of fire, because there is a great gulf fixed that is impassable.

 

[wattie]

Revelation, Chapter 22:

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

When the new earth is come, and His City (the New Jerusalem) comes down where He will reside with the saints forever, WHY are there "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters" outside of the Gates? I always thought that such would be in the lake of fire. Not on the new earth.

Gill's Commentary says:

Verse 15​

For without are dogs ,.... That is, without the holy city are such persons who are comparable to dogs for their filthiness, impudence, and voraciousness, as are persecutors, heretics, and apostates, Matthew 7:6 . Some think Sodomites are intended, as in Deuteronomy 23:18 . So Abarbinel and others interpret the law; and who abound in the Roman jurisdiction, called therefore Sodom, Revelation 11:8 and indeed all wicked men, who will be cast out into outer darkness, may be signified hereby. The Jews say F11 Raya Mchimna in Zohar in Numb. fol. 95. 2. ,

"when a man dies, if he be worthy (or righteous) he descends in the likeness of a lion to receive "his" soul, but if not, in the likeness of "a dog", concerning which David says, Psalm 22:20 .'

And sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters ; characters of the antichristian party, who will have no place in this city, or glorious kingdom of Christ; See Gill on Revelation 21:8 .


And whosoever loveth and maketh a lie ; who loves both to invent and tell lies, and loves to hear them told by others; meaning more especially the doctrinal lies of antichrist, which are spoken in hypocrisy by him, and his followers are given up to believe.

I find it odd that such as these should even be on the new earth, and outside of the Gates of the City of New Jerusalem. I have read through several Commentaries, but can not find a definitive explanation concerning this oddity.

The question is on what happens to believers who have their works burned up.. but are still saved.

Are they 'outside the gates' of the New Jerusalem ?

If it those actually lost outside the gates..should they not be in a different place?

 

[SomeDisciple]

Anything not in the city would technically be "outside the gates", including the lake of fire. Seems pretty fundamental.

 

[p_rehbein]

So they are not outside the New Jerusalem.

Your explanation is what I always thought as well. However, verse 15 clearly states that such as these "are without." Even John Gill was somewhat unsure as revealed in his Commentary when he said:
Revelation 11:8 and indeed all wicked men, who will be cast out into outer darkness, may be signified hereby

 

[p_rehbein]

Anything not in the city would technically be "outside the gates", including the lake of fire. Seems pretty fundamental.

Well, not really. If verse 15 is read in context with the preceding/following verses.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 14 reads that the saved have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the Gates... So they arwithout as well, It seems to read that the saved can enter in and out of the Gates as they choose?

 

[p_rehbein]

The question is on what happens to believers who have their works burned up.. but are still saved.

Are they 'outside the gates' of the New Jerusalem ?

If it those actually lost outside the gates..should they not be in a different place?

Good question. I know Scripture says that there are different levels of "rewards". So is it possible that a "lower reward" would be that some of the saved can live without the Gates, but not enter into? That would raise the question about their access to the waters of life and the tree that bears the twelve fruits though.

 

[p_rehbein]

Reading Matthew Henry's Commentary, I think I agree with him (which would also agree with Tablet123's statement:

v. 13, 14. He is the first and the last, and the same from first to last, and so is his word too; and he will by this word give to his people, who conform themselves to it, a right to the tree of life, and an entrance into heaven; and this will be a full confirmation of the truth and authority of his word, since it contains the title and evidence of that confirmed state of holiness and happiness that remains for his people in heaven. 9. It is a book that condemns and excludes from heaven all wicked, unrighteous persons, and particularly those that love and make lies (v. 15),

While Gill said "may refer" Henry is more direct in saying such as described in verse 15 have already been excluded from the new earth and denied entry into the Gates of the New City.

Thanks for the various comments. God bless

 

[wattie]

Good question. I know Scripture says that there are different levels of "rewards". So is it possible that a "lower reward" would be that some of the saved can live without the Gates, but not enter into? That would raise the question about their access to the waters of life and the tree that bears the twelve fruits though.

Yeah..scripture does speak of the ability to go in and out of the gates

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 22:

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I do not believe that verse 15 is referring to a literal list describing what/who is "right outside the gates"; rather, I believe the 'intent' and 'sense' of it is to describe that which is not allowed in the city (and will never be found there) - and that - those who "may enter in" (verse 14) are by no means anything like any of the characterizations in the list.

It is an illustration of what God has done - "set up" - that will never be compromised.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

There will always be a sickle to work the fields.

 

[greenonions]

See Isaiah 66:22-24. During the time of the New Heavens and New Earth, people will regularly visit the New Jerusalem. Outside will be corpses where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, ie hell. It sounds like the dead will be consciously tormented but unable to move.

Isaiah 35:6-10 (NKJV) seems to say that the land of Edom will be the lake of fire. "Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever."

 

[homwardbound]

Good question. Maybe it's referring to dogs and sorcerers in the lake of fire. They are not dead, but they can't get out of their predicament to be able to enter the holy city

Wow, another conundrum, perplexity, that no man can fathom truthfully. God the only one that knows all, sees all and continues to love all, knows.
Who I stand in trust to know or not know per God Father's call by risen Son given me to be Father's Vessel only ( the same as Son was and did first) To lead and share this love and mercy to all
That is all I see that continues from Father and Son as Won for us all to love all in mercy and truth to all as is gvien to us all first 1 John 4, sorting out verses 17-19