Not By Works

[benhur]

Yes or you will not grow to maturity.

Also I have edited the post you were being critical about, "Good Bye Nonsense"

Thank you, I feel I am very close to being able to bridge my beliefs to your beliefs.

I have heard previously that good works is not part of salvation, but it is part of sanctification. And I never put it together enough to ask the right questions. I finally did it. I was not using the right Christian jargon.

So let me say it again and see if we agree:

When one believes, that person is immediately justified and positionally sanctified.

As a person continues in the gospel, they mature spiritually and become one with Jesus. This oneness then gives place for spiritual revelation and good works for the love of Jesus and his children, and as we do these things, we will be practically sanctified.

This maturity in Jesus (practical sanctification) may have its ups and downs and may take a while to be a profound part of our life, but eventually we will fully become one with Christ and receive practical sanctification. The combination of belief in Jesus, having faith, and being justified and being positionally sanctified and practically sanctified = salvation.

 

[blue_ladybug]

That list would include Jesus and all of his apostles, so now you have thrown even the founder of the faith and his pillars of the faith that he chose to be in charge when he left under your bus. Good going.

And you do that to keep your agenda alive that the second you believe you are saved for all eternities. Well now you are approaching 99% of all Christians + the founder Jesus Christ, who looked forward to having the power and glory bestowed back upon him from his God and his Father when he finished his business here on earth.

And he wanted glory to go to all those that believed in him.

Yeah, umm.. Jesus was God, so He didn't take ANY glory away from God whatsoever. And the bible tells that that we need only believe on God, to be saved for all eternity. When salvation is given, it cannot be lost or revoked by God.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Those on the left hand who went to hell did nothing for God.

Then you said the parables about some of those who were left behind were about His servants. So let me ask in your opinion, how is our love for God demonstrated if we do not serve him?

It’s not.

We demonstrate our love for God by loving people.

• inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
Matthew 25:44-45




JPT

 

[benhur]

I'm not throwing ANYONE under the bus. It's common knowledge that the popes are anti-Christ's.. There are many anti-Christ's on this earth today.. Catholicism is NOT Christianity. Not even close. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh and btw, I get along very well with Dcon.

I know you do, at least on the process of being saved. But there are tens of doctrines that make up the gospel of Jesus Christ, do you line up 100% on all doctrines?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Good Bye Nonsense

"Completely foolish nonsense"

Ok. Have it your way.


If you want to call obeying the Gospel, foolish nonsense then that will be something you can explain to the Lord Jesus Christ, on that Day.



JPT

 

[TruthTalk]

Thank you, I feel I am very close to being able to bridge my beliefs to your beliefs.

I have heard previously that good works is not part of salvation, but it is part of sanctification. And I never put it together enough to ask the right questions. I finally did it. I was not using the right Christian jargon.

So let me say it again and see if we agree:

When one believes, that person is immediately justified and positionally sanctified.

As a person continues in the gospel, they mature spiritually and become one with Jesus. This oneness then gives place for spiritual revelation and good works for the love of Jesus and his children, and as we do these things, we will be practically sanctified.

This maturity in Jesus (practical sanctification) may have its ups and downs and may take a while to be a profound part of our life, but eventually we will fully become one with Christ and receive practical sanctification. The combination of belief in Jesus, having faith, and being justified and being positionally sanctified and practically sanctified = salvation.

What you call works, I refer to as practical sanctification becoming mature in Christ, because we are saved by grace "Not By Works"

Ephesians4:13

until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."​

 

[benhur]

Yeah, umm.. Jesus was God, so He didn't take ANY glory away from God whatsoever. And the bible tells that that we need only believe on God, to be saved for all eternity. When salvation is given, it cannot be lost or revoked by God.

If Jesus were God the Father, why did Jesus, the Son of God the Father, have to ask God the Father to give him glory? Since we know God gave him the glory that Jesus, the son of God the Father asked for, he question is: when God the Father gave Jesus, the son of God some of his glory, did that diminish God the Fathers glory. The answer is no, in fact it increased it.

 

[BillG]

Ok. Have it your way.


If you want to call obeying the Gospel, foolish nonsense then that will be something you can explain to the Lord Jesus Christ, on that Day.



JPT

I can't recall TT saying that to obey the Gospel is foolish.

I think he says it's foolish to obey in order to be saved but we obey because we are saved.

I'm sure he will correct me.

Anyway what is the Gospel?

 

[TruthTalk]

Ok. Have it your way.


If you want to call obeying the Gospel, foolish nonsense then that will be something you can explain to the Lord Jesus Christ, on that Day.



JPT

I'm calling your criticism of me, and your constantly miss representing my words are nonsense, do you understand now? I did not say obeying the gospel was nonsense I said you were, you do twist every bodies words.

Have a wonderful forever.

 

[blue_ladybug]

If Jesus were God the Father, why did Jesus, the Son of God the Father, have to ask God the Father to give him glory? Since we know God gave him the glory that Jesus, the son of God the Father asked for, he question is: when God the Father gave Jesus, the son of God some of his glory, did that diminish God the Fathers glory. The answer is no, in fact it increased it.

Because that's the way God wanted it. He brought glory to Himself as God, and He brought glory to Himself as Jesus, which Jesus then attributed that glory to God.

 

[dcontroversal]

That list would include Jesus and all of his apostles, so now you have thrown even the founder of the faith and his pillars of the faith that he chose to be in charge when he left under your bus. Good going.

And you do that to keep your agenda alive that the second you believe you are saved for all eternities. Well now you are approaching 99% of all Christians + the founder Jesus Christ, who looked forward to having the power and glory bestowed back upon him from his God and his Father when he finished his business here on earth.

And he wanted glory to go to all those that believed in him.

No need to reply to the idiotic comment in bold.....

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm not throwing ANYONE under the bus. It's common knowledge that the popes are anti-Christ's.. There are many anti-Christ's on this earth today.. Catholicism is NOT Christianity. Not even close. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh and btw, I get along very well with Dcon.

AMEN....kindred spirit and our foundation is the truth....which alludes his dogma....

 

[VCO]

Wow did I ever have a Pleasant Surprise today. First of, I suspect that our 75 year old Pastor, may be thinking about retirement, which saddens me a bit. Perhaps the First of the new year. Nothing that he has said personally, but just a suspicion, mainly because he is teaching through Revelation, and we just finished chapter 17. Where I go to Church, is stop and go traffic through several stop lights about 4 miles or more miles away, in the second largest City in Nebraska. So I thought about it, and came to the conclusion, after my Pastor retires, it I may choose to go to a Church closer home. There is a Heartland Bible Church affiliated with FELLOWSHIP of Evangelical Bible Churches, about 1.25 miles from my house, and only 4 stop lights away. So I read THROUGH their Doctrinal Statement of Faith, and WOW.

It is the BEST Doctrinal Statement that I have ever read. In my opinion, every Church can take lessons from this, on how to prepare a Doctrinal Statement.

If you are interested, look through it, and you will see what I mean: https://www.fellowshipforward.org/doctrine.html

 

[benhur]

What you call works, I refer to as practical sanctification becoming mature in Christ, because we are saved by grace "Not By Works"

Ephesians4:13

until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."​

So one of the differences we face is that you use the term 'practical sanctification' for the term I use which is 'good works'. I don't see a large mountain there, I think we are getting closer.

 

[BillG]

Wow did I ever have a Pleasant Surprise today. First of, I suspect that our 75 year old Pastor, may be thinking about retirement, which saddens me a bit. Perhaps the First of the new year. Nothing that he has said personally, but just a suspicion, mainly because he is teaching through Revelation, and we just finished chapter 17. Where I go to Church, is stop and go traffic through several stop lights about 4 miles or more miles away, in the second largest City in Nebraska. So I thought about it, and came to the conclusion, after my Pastor retires, it I may choose to go to a Church closer home. There is a Heartland Bible Church affiliated with FELLOWSHIP of Evangelical Bible Churches, about 1.25 miles from my house, and only 4 stop lights away. So I read THROUGH their Doctrinal Statement of Faith, and WOW.

It is the BEST Doctrinal Statement that I have ever read. In my opinion, every Church can take lessons from this, on how to prepare a Doctrinal Statement.

If you are interested, look through it, and you will see what I mean: https://www.fellowshipforward.org/doctrine.html

Hi VCO,

I am sure that wherever God takes you to he will surely use you.
I read all your posts and you bring so much to the table.

I read the Doctrinal Statement.
It is sound and solid.

There is one thing that I don't understand.
So I would appreciate your thoughts on it. So I have bolded it.

• Sanctification

We believe sanctification, a setting-apart unto God, involves both the work of God and the will of man (Phil. 2:12-13). Sanctification is threefold: positional, progressive, and ultimate. It is positional, for every believer is in Christ and therefore identical with Christ's position before God (1 Cor. 6:11; Col. 3:1-4; Heb. 10:10). We believe, however, that he retains his sin nature (flesh), which cannot be eradicated in this life. Therefore, while the standing of the believer in Christ is perfect, his present state is no more perfect than his experience in daily life. Therefore, a believer experiences progressive sanctification, growing in grace and becoming changed by the unhindered power of the Spirit (John 17:17; Rom. 6:19; 2 Cor. 7:1). Ultimate sanctification will occur when the believer sees the Lord and becomes "like Him" (1 Thess. 5:23; 1 John 2:28-3:3).

I believe Jesus physically rose from the dead and physically ascended to heaven.
But between those two events he appeared and dissapeared.

I'm imagining DC shaking his head here whilst in his hands and saying "Oh Bill, Bill how many times do I have to explain it?

But I do know he will keep on doing it regardless. Thanks DC, love you Bro.

So if sin resides in the flesh our sin nature yet we sin where on earth does it come from? Paul says it's not me sinning but what is in my flesh.

I'm not expecting you to answer that but I can't understand Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father with his sin nature (flesh)

Maybe you explain it to me.
Not sure I will get it but want to try and get it.

 

[benhur]

Hi VCO,

I am sure that wherever God takes you to he will surely use you.
I read all your posts and you bring so much to the table.

I read the Doctrinal Statement.
It is sound and solid.

There is one thing that I don't understand.
So I would appreciate your thoughts on it. So I have bolded it.

• Sanctification

We believe sanctification, a setting-apart unto God, involves both the work of God and the will of man (Phil. 2:12-13). Sanctification is threefold: positional, progressive, and ultimate. It is positional, for every believer is in Christ and therefore identical with Christ's position before God (1 Cor. 6:11; Col. 3:1-4; Heb. 10:10). We believe, however, that he retains his sin nature (flesh), which cannot be eradicated in this life. Therefore, while the standing of the believer in Christ is perfect, his present state is no more perfect than his experience in daily life. Therefore, a believer experiences progressive sanctification, growing in grace and becoming changed by the unhindered power of the Spirit (John 17:17; Rom. 6:19; 2 Cor. 7:1). Ultimate sanctification will occur when the believer sees the Lord and becomes "like Him" (1 Thess. 5:23; 1 John 2:28-3:3).

I believe Jesus physically rose from the dead and physically ascended to heaven.
But between those two events he appeared and dissapeared.

I'm imagining DC shaking his head here whilst in his hands and saying "Oh Bill, Bill how many times do I have to explain it?

But I do know he will keep on doing it regardless. Thanks DC, love you Bro.

So if sin resides in the flesh our sin nature yet we sin where on earth does it come from? Paul says it's not me sinning but what is in my flesh.

I'm not expecting you to answer that but I can't understand Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father with his sin nature (flesh)

Maybe you explain it to me.
Not sure I will get it but want to try and get it.

Jesus was sinless, so he had no sin nature flesh. If there was anything akin to that, it was eradicated and he was made perfect and ultimately sanctified when he was resurrected.

Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father in a perfect body of flesh and bone and spirit. Sinless and ultimately sanctified.

You too will have the same kind of body after you have been resurrected.

So do you believe one needs to be positionally sanctified, progressively sanctified and utlimately sanctified in order to be saved?

 

[blue_ladybug]

I know you do, at least on the process of being saved. But there are tens of doctrines that make up the gospel of Jesus Christ, do you line up 100% on all doctrines?

The only thing I need to line up 100% is, that we are saved by faith, belief and God's grace. There is no other way to gain salvation. There also is no way to LOSE salvation. God cannot revoke His gift, otherwise He would be a liar.

 

[PurpleCandles]

Over 3 thousand pages debating one simple Godly truth that Christ spoke over 2000 years ago.
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
- Mark 16:16
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.



Some use Paul to claim works keep us saved? That's not what Paul said.
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

 

[dcontroversal]

Over 3 thousand pages debating one simple Godly truth that Christ spoke over 2000 years ago.
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
- Mark 16:16
John 14:26 26But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.



Some use Paul to claim works keep us saved? That's not what Paul said.
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe....<---NO water immersion required!

 

[benhur]

Because that's the way God wanted it. He brought glory to Himself as God, and He brought glory to Himself as Jesus, which Jesus then attributed that glory to God.

That's right, God wanted to give glory to Jesus because it came back to Him. The same way he wants to give us glory because it will come back to Him. That is what God wants.