Not By Works

[preston39]

you are one of the few who decides to help lighten up the thread

I meant, both opposing sides of the debate

t..,

I knew what you meant...just chiding a bit.

When I see G-d's word and His known intent being mutilated by new age religion types I am enraged that my fellow man would treat His word and commandments with such disdain, low, vile, feeble, or ignominious.. contemns. I must control my self else I would become over zealous in response.
Whereas, I must constantly pray to Him for containment of response content in light of known limitations of some.

 

[theanointedsinner]

t..,

I knew what you meant...just chiding a bit.

When I see G-d's word and His known intent being mutilated by new age religion types I am enraged that my fellow man would treat His word and commandments with such disdain, low, vile, feeble, or ignominious.. contemns. I must control my self else I would become over zealous in response.
Whereas, I must constantly pray to Him for containment of response content in light of known limitations of some.

Mr. preston39, can you do me a favor, and ask VCO the step by step process of salvation, and how one can have assurance of salvation?

 

[theanointedsinner]

No need to scream. There's no such remark in the post by dcontroversal. Why are you asking such things, echoes?

echoes spelled backwards, I never see that
Ostrich is very observant

 

[theanointedsinner]

Benhur, how about some better examples, like what if a hypnotist hypnotize a born again christian to reject Christ

or, what if the Christian have amnesia and forgot everything about agape love and Jesus, and become a Jesus-hater

or, what if the Christian was falsely guilted to the point where the heart of that Christian was harden to the point of no return

or, what if the Christian got a railroad spike slam down their head and their brain is so damaged, their personality altered into the most un-Christ-like hater and rebel against Christ.

and what does Romans 8:38-39 mean to you Benhur?

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

Post #67,911 is highly imaginative, but not at all biblical. Indeed, post #67,911 says in part,

None is this is true!

What I shared with you in post #67,911 is absolutely Biblical and true - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3396#post-3668115

Unfortunately, you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear.

There is nothing—absolutely nothing—more important to me that the truth. Therefore, when I find the Bible being falsely manipulated to distort the truth, I am deeply grieved.

If there was absolutely nothing more important to you than the truth, then you would not be perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works. I am deeply grieved by watching you falsely manipulate and distort the truth.

 

[benhur]

Ben, are you foolish ENOUGH to ignore EVERYTHING that True OSAS Believers have been TELLING YOU? That concept is ONLY IN YOUR MIND. I have told you at least three times, and several others have told you the same thing, that ONLY YOU include those that turn from JESUS as supposed True Believers. I REPEAT ONLY YOU INCLUDE THEM AS SUPPOSED TRUE BELIEVERS. THEY NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS, OR THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED IN THE FAITH.

2 John 1:1-2 (ESV)
1 The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,
2 because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:


THE TRUTH THAT THEY ABANDONED, PROVES THEY WERE NEVER BORN AGAIN!


1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us;
for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.


NOW that is what every true BELIEVE in OSAS BELIEVES,

And it does not matter that YOU HEARD DIFFERENTLY, because the statement
that you proclaimed was done in pure IGNORANCE. Do you want the TRUTH
about OSAS, then ASK US, or are you Comfortable to be proclaiming a LIE?


Yes, I let you out of the BOX. But with foolish posts, VOID of even an inkling of TRUTH,
that only proves you are only reiterating a falsehood about our Beliefs; it is awful tempting
to put you right back into that IGNORE BOX.



1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-6 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to struggle in various trials

There are simply too many scriptures that tell us that the true believer can fall, if they do not take heed of their salvation.
Too many scriptures that prove OSAS is not a true doctrine.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

There are simply too many scriptures that tell us that the true believer can fall, if they do not take heed of their salvation.
Too many scriptures that prove OSAS is not a true doctrine.

The true believer was fallen. Was.
If you identify as Christian it is unfortunate that you yourself do not feel secure in the promise of the father at the sacrifice of his eternal son.
My deepest sympathies to your living such a doctrine as that.

 

[TruthTalk]

It is a concept that is fully functional under OSAS. If a person is saved and then turns from Jesus and in fact hates him, the doctrine of OSAS by definition and regardless of his hate, that man must be saved by Jesus into his Kingdom.

No reprobates, unbelievers disbelievers, atheist, apostates, heretics, or heathens, including goats, are allowed in God's Kingdom. God's kingdom is reserved for those who "love", the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Over and over you search God's word so that you can prove your false notion that a "true born again believer", can lose their "eternal salvation", and over and over you are proven wrong. Rather you should let the scriptures speak to you and you will find the truth.

1John5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves His child as well.

1Corinthians2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared "for those who love Him."

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Worth repeating in this thread I think.
Blessings to all.

*video length* 4:40. If you ever take the time to post even once that a Christian can lose their salvation because they are not eternally saved, take less than five minutes to overcome that fear and learn the truth. And also, what the doctrine that teaches we are not eternally secure is teaching about what God would have to do to make that so.


For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)

 

[TruthTalk]

There are simply too many scriptures that tell us that the true believer can fall, if they do not take heed of their salvation.
Too many scriptures that prove OSAS is not a true doctrine.

Document your "too many scriptures", why should we just take your word as being true. Please list all of your verses that support your view that a born again believer can lose their "eternal salvation." The bible say's you are wrong.

OSAS is a strawman argument that cannot be supported by scripture. "Eternal Security of the believer can be proven by scripture.

 

[TruthTalk]

Worth repeating in this thread I think.
Blessings to all.

*video length* 4:40. If you ever take the time to post even once that a Christian can lose their salvation because they are not eternally saved, take less than five minutes to overcome that fear and learn the truth. And also, what the doctrine that teaches we are not eternally secure is teaching about what God would have to do to make that so.


For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)

Hi OstrichSmiling, I whole heartedly agree with you, our salvation is "eternal." and at the "bema seat" of Christ we will be judged for rewards not punishment, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Rom8:1.
I am so tired of hearing benhur's fictitious story about a nonbeliever in heaven who "hates Jesus", complete nonsense, heaven will be populated with believer's who worship their Savior.

Excellent video on the "eternal security of the believer." thank you. We have been redeemed from the curse in the Garden with the "precious blood of Jesus", our Savior, praise God!

1Peter1:18,19
18) For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19) but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

God bless!

 

[benhur]

Benhur, how about some better examples, like what if a hypnotist hypnotize a born again christian to reject Christ

or, what if the Christian have amnesia and forgot everything about agape love and Jesus, and become a Jesus-hater

or, what if the Christian was falsely guilted to the point where the heart of that Christian was harden to the point of no return

or, what if the Christian got a railroad spike slam down their head and their brain is so damaged, their personality altered into the most un-Christ-like hater and rebel against Christ.

and what does Romans 8:38-39 mean to you Benhur?

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let's answer them for you:
1) hypnotist - not applicable
2) amnesia - God will judge
3) falsely accused is a real story. Over the centuries their are perhaps millions of stories of men and women and children who have been true believers that have had such a negative traumatic event happen to them, that they have cursed God and Jesus and left the church, never to return. This is a good example of what happens in the real world. From high believer to traumatic event to fallen non-believer, who never repents and comes back. Not going to have EL.
There are billions that have had negative traumatic events that have trudged through it and came out the other side as stalwart Christians for God and Jesus. So in their case high believers to traumatic event to higher believers. It goes both ways.
4) railroad spike - God will judge

Yes, I believe Romans 8:38-39. In vs 35 Paul asks who shall separate us from the love of Christ. IOW, no matter what happens to you, Christ will never stop loving you.

But it is a true fact that because of persecutions, etc., thousands of true believers gave up their faith and love for Jesus and never came back.

The true believers that had the attitude described by Paul in vs 36 are the ones that vs 38-39 are talking about. They did not give up their faith and will have EL. These are they that for the sake of Jesus were killed all the day long, and were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. These are the ones that cannot be separated from Jesus.

So Jesus's love will always be constant for all, but all will not love Jesus and will be separated unless they repent and come back to him. Read your history and find out the facts about those that backslid because of persecutions and those that did not backslide because of persecutions.

Thousands that did backslide did come back and repented and were welcomed into the church again with full fellowship. Thousands that backslid did not repent and come back. They turned their back on Christ and left his fold. These were once true believers, not make believe believers.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Hi OstrichSmiling, I whole heartedly agree with you, our salvation is "eternal." and at the "bema seat" of Christ we will be judged for rewards not punishment, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Rom8:1.
I am so tired of hearing benhur's fictitious story about a nonbeliever in heaven who "hates Jesus", complete nonsense, heaven will be populated with believer's who worship their Savior.

Excellent video on the "eternal security of the believer." thank you. We have been redeemed from the curse in the Garden with the "precious blood of Jesus", our Savior, praise God!

1Peter1:18,19
18) For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19) but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

God bless!

And may God bless you as well. Pray for benhur. He knows not what he says when the Bible speaks plainly.

 

[TruthTalk]

Benhur, how about some better examples, like what if a hypnotist hypnotize a born again christian to reject Christ

or, what if the Christian have amnesia and forgot everything about agape love and Jesus, and become a Jesus-hater

or, what if the Christian was falsely guilted to the point where the heart of that Christian was harden to the point of no return

or, what if the Christian got a railroad spike slam down their head and their brain is so damaged, their personality altered into the most un-Christ-like hater and rebel against Christ.

and what does Romans 8:38-39 mean to you Benhur?

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen! Preach it theanointedsinner, again and again.

 

[TruthTalk]

Thousands that backslid did not repent and come back. They turned their back on Christ and left his fold. These were once true believers, not make believe believers.

Okay so document your proof and just who are these fictitious people you know so intimately, did you have and interview with them, and how is it you are so privileged to know all of their personal history.

Your stories sound made up just like the notion that a "born again believer" can, "lose their eternal security."

Quote:benhur
"These were "once true believers", not make believe believers." (Documentation Please).

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Okay so document your proof and just who are these fictitious people you know so intimately, did you have and interview with them, and how is it you are so privileged to know all of their personal history.

Your stories sound made up just like the notion that a "born again believer" can, "lose their eternal security."

Quote:benhur
"These were "once true believers", not make believe believers." (Documentation Please).

What did Jesus say brother?

Acts 20:30
"Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them. "



John 5:35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’d Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

There are those who went out from Jesus' number. But they did so because they were not one with him. Who would rather die thirsty having walked away from living water?

Warnings Against Denying the Son​

1 John 2
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.e 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

[dcontroversal]

t...,
The whole concept of OSAS is ludricus and contempuous for just 2 reasons (there are 20-30 more);

Why would G-d give us unlimited # of times for forgiveness,
Why would G-d tell us...; "sacrifice for forgiveness is not available when sin is present"

The OSAS concept has only been advocated in Christendom since ABOUT the 1960's (an era of great social and moral upheaval in society) and was/is part of a new age religion re-interpretation of scriptures consistent with...."tickle my ears and tell me what I want to hear"...

Further, the concept is in conflict with G-d's plan for us to be judged after physical death. I doubt we have the power to change G-d's plans in any way ......except appeal thru prayer.

I doubt He appreciates that in any form.

The above reeks of complete ignorance.......

 

[BillG]

t...,
The whole concept of OSAS is ludricus and contempuous for just 2 reasons (there are 20-30 more);

Why would G-d give us unlimited # of times for forgiveness,
Why would G-d tell us...; "sacrifice for forgiveness is not available when sin is present"

The OSAS concept has only been advocated in Christendom since ABOUT the 1960's (an era of great social and moral upheaval in society) and was/is part of a new age religion re-interpretation of scriptures consistent with...."tickle my ears and tell me what I want to hear"...

Further, the concept is in conflict with G-d's plan for us to be judged after physical death. I doubt we have the power to change G-d's plans in any way ......except appeal thru prayer.

I doubt He appreciates that in any form.

Are you referring to Hebrew 10:26 concerning "sacrifice for forgiveness is not available when sin is present"

With regards to unlimited # times for forgiveness, are you not limiting the grace of God?

All the fathers of the faith committed willful sin, include Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
So did David, Solomon.
Jonah rebelled against God.
Peter denied Jesus.
The list could be added to.

All the above sinned willfully, David many times.


Are the above in heaven?

 

[TruthTalk]

t...,
The whole concept of OSAS is ludricus and contempuous for just 2 reasons (there are 20-30 more);

"Eternal Security of the Believer", is supported by scripture, like it or not. You may choose to not believe in the "eternal security of the believer", but I choose to believe that, "He who has begun a good work in me will carry it on to completion." Phil1:6

To say that a true believers assurance of salvation is ludicrous and contemptuous is a misguided statement when scripture is full of verses that say otherwise.

Philippians1:6
being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Hebrews7:25
25) Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

John10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[benhur]

The lost and what words mean to them

a. Eternal = temporary
b. Irrevocable = can be changed, reversable
c. Kept by the power of God = tossed away
d. SAVED to the uttermost = partially saved
e. Perfect tense Greek verb = thrown under the bus
f. I will never leave thee or forsake thee = Jesus lied and will leave and forsake thee
g. Nothing can separate us from the love of God = God's word is false and something can

etc.....

These workers for, cainologists and Pharisees that throw Jesus, his promises, his words his power undwr the bus equate God to a sniviling liar that cannot keep his word and they will pay the price.

No, we will not pay a price. We have been saved (by your own definitioin) just like you. So if your definition of saved is the truth, we will be there to rejoice with you. So don't be worried about us.