Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

So then what is your point Decon? God's Saving Grace is given to everyone? What does the Christ mean when He says "Not Worthy of Me" "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you that "work" iniquity" "Gather all that offend, and "DO" iniquity and cast them into the lake of fire".

How am I taking these out of context? How is the Christ saying "You are not Worthy of Me" a "False Drivel"?

NO ONE deserves the grace of God and you regularly conflate and confuse justification with ongoing sanctification to define your false gospel.....not to mention a total lack of context.....!!

 

[benhur]

Again, there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

Those who produce nothing are not true converts.

If the branches truly have a spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine, then yes, they believe, have been born again and will bear fruit. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). The branches that have a mere cosmic connection with the vine and bear no fruit at all, do not represent believers who have been born again.

Judas never was a born again believer, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) and was a good example of a self-attached branch that did not abide in the vine and was cut off.

Once again, in John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit (faith without works is dead) and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not obtained or maintained by works. (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). The problem with NOSAS is that it can lead people to place too much focus on their actions/works as the basis or means by which they either obtain or maintain salvation, then faith is made void and the promise of no effect.

Those who are not true converts will never find themselves on the true vine of Jesus. Just like Judas.

The church, or body of Christ existed while Christ was still with us, he had quite a following. Many of those in the body of Christ were not in him, however, and were never branches on his vine, because of the hardness of their hearts, like Judas, and others that finally left him when he gave his "I am the bread of life" sermon. Those who went out of the body of Christ were not of the body of Christ because they truly did not believe, and were not iN HIM and never were a branch of his true vine.

Only true believers were branches in His true vine, and any of them who did not produce were taken away. Saved, but were lazy, and not committed and ignored the Holy Spirit and fell away and were lost and lost their salvation too. It is too straight forward to misinterpret. Except if you cling to OSAS doctrine, then you have to make modifications to the parable.

 

[benhur]

Yes and we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Thank you that is what I say.

 

[benhur]

In response to arguments over the Holy Bible, I do believe the Holy Bible is infallible and the true Word of God. I used to not know for sure, but that was over 25 years ago. I'm rock solid sure now that the Bible is absolutely TRUE. I don't need an original copy when I fellowship with the Author.

I do believe God has hidden Himself in plain sight - only with the Holy Spirit can the scriptures be understood and believed - blinded eyes opened and made possible to see God.

Have you read my post #74,258 for the perfect example of what we are talking about?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Yes and we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The whole concept of rewards in heaven is totally lost on BenHur . . . we are ordained to good works in order that we may be rewarded, not to determine whether we end up in heaven or not. Anything he doesn't like, he ignores - such as the concept of 'suffering loss' and yet being saved, or having the smell of smoke on our garments because someone loved us enough to use fear to win us to the Lord.

But the natural man . . .

 

[dcontroversal]

This is what you have said . . . it is what you believe



You totally misrepresent John 15:2 despite numerous attempts to explain the verse to you. At this point you are a false teacher.

AMEN.........anyone who peddles a self saving gospel of faith plus works for or to keep is contrary.......

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

AMEN.........anyone who peddles a self saving gospel of faith plus works for or to keep is contrary.......

A great surprise awaits those that think they are saved as they stand on the shores of the red, fiery sea which is the lot of those without hope.

 

[TruthTalk]

So do you believe that we should do the works that God before ordanined that we should walk in them?

Yes believers should and will do the works that God has prepared and true Christian will do the work that God has prepared for us to do. But "we are saved based on God's Mercy" not based on our performance. God loves true believers with "agape love" the same unconditional love that the Father loves the Son. Pretend Christians will not do God's work and so they are the non believers in John 15:2.

Your "Merit Based" gospel is as phony as a three dollar bill. Time to retool your fake gospel.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Have you read my post #74,258 for the perfect example of what we are talking about?

So, uh, Benny . . . on a scale between 0% and a 100% where would you put your actual chances of reaching heaven some day?

 

[dcontroversal]

You are not right. That is all I can tell you , you are just not right. For instance, what do you say about the difference between these 2 versions:
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 New International Version (NIV)
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

So the KJV says no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus, for those that walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Meaning that if you are in Jesus, but you do not walk in the spirit, but the flesh takes over and causes you to fall away, you may lose your salvation. (Same as John 15:2 says)

The NIV only says there is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus. Meaning that once you have been saved, you are always saved. (OSAS).

You tell me, which version is the correct gospel?

We already covered this and you rejected it in favor of that which is false....the ONLY version that adds the last half is the KING JIMMY....

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[dcontroversal]

A great surprise awaits those that think they are saved as they stand on the shores of the red, fiery sea which is the lot of those without hope.

What blows my ind is the simple truth that they, THE workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees ALL peddle the same dogma that JESUS speaks about when he references the MANY that come before him in that day saying, "LORD, LORD, have we not done............"

a. They ALL believe they know the LORD and call HIM LORD
b. THEY all believe that the WONDERFUL forks they have done in the NAME of JESUS has helped them gain entrance into the KINGDOM

They ALL peddle the above and are OBLIVIOUS to this absolute truth....

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

What blows my ind is the simple truth that they, THE workers for, Cainologists and Pharisees ALL peddle the same dogma that JESUS speaks about when he references the MANY that come before him in that day saying, "LORD, LORD, have we not done............"

a. They ALL believe they know the LORD and call HIM LORD
b. THEY all believe that the WONDERFUL forks they have done in the NAME of JESUS has helped them gain entrance into the KINGDOM

They ALL peddle the above and are OBLIVIOUS to this absolute truth....

I am certain that he belongs to a cult, just like the recently banned 'The Question' but he knows enough not to admit it. As soon as he does he knows he is outta here. Wouldn't surprise me to learn he is just another disciple of the Watchtower.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Have you read my post #74,258 for the perfect example of what we are talking about?

Oh wait, only 144,000 of you are going to get there. I keep forgetting the nuances of that . . .

 

[BillG]

In response to arguments over the Holy Bible, I do believe the Holy Bible is infallible and the true Word of God. I used to not know for sure, but that was over 25 years ago. I'm rock solid sure now that the Bible is absolutely TRUE. I don't need an original copy when I fellowship with the Author.

I do believe God has hidden Himself in plain sight - only with the Holy Spirit can the scriptures be understood and believed - blinded eyes opened and made possible to see God.

A bit like the 2 on the road to Emmaus.

Jesus had to open their eyes to see.
Just as the Holy Spirit does in us today.

 

[theanointedsinner]

Oh wait, only 144,000 of you are going to get there. I keep forgetting the nuances of that . . .

and benhur probably believe that, the tribe of Benjamin refers to himself on Revelation 7:8
who knows?

 

[theanointedsinner]

So, uh, Benny . . . on a scale between 0% and a 100% where would you put your actual chances of reaching heaven some day?

let's find a roulette table, list out possible percentage of 100 divided by 36, round it to the nearest whole number, and whatever results come, that should be about it

*insert sarcasm here*

 

[theanointedsinner]

So, uh, Benny . . . on a scale between 0% and a 100% where would you put your actual chances of reaching heaven some day?

if he (benhur) decides to play russian roulette, and he happen to lose, where is his hope for salvation?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

let's find a roulette table, list out possible percentage of 100 divided by 36, round it to the nearest whole number, and whatever results come, that should be about it

*insert sarcasm here*

Of course he'll say 100% . . . it's 0% for the rest of us poor sinners.

Praise the Lord that Jesus Christ is my Advocate with the Father. Yea, all those things are true about him Father, but I stand in His place and cover Him with My Blood. He is innocent in Me!

Gives ya goosebumps don'it?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

if he (benhur) decides to play russian roulette, and he happen to lose, where is his hope for salvation?

Well, the trigger isn't pulled until the books are opened . . . and by the time a guy gets to that point -- it ain't there.

 

[VCO]

if he (benhur) decides to play russian roulette, and he happen to lose, where is his hope for salvation?

His only hope is to become one of the TRIBULATION SAINTS. They will all become one of the MARTYRED saints, beheaded for they faith.

The Inmates would get all mocho, saying they could do that. I would then ask, so what if they start with your KIDS, and say if you do not take the Mark, we will chop the head off of your baby daughter as you watch. Then they will grab your 3 year old son, and can you refuse to take the Mark as they make you watch your son being beheaded. Or will you take the Mark to save your children's lives.

Then their mocho attitude would disappear, and they got all quiet.