Not By Works
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"14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14
I think most Christians instantly think 'self-righteousness' when they hear the word 'works', not knowing that works are the result of grace in a person's life and, therefore, serve as evidence of the presence of that grace in a person. And, ultimately, as the verse above says, if you don't have that evidence you won't see the Lord.
"make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:10-11
Seek to confirm the presence of saving grace in your life by putting the word of God to work in your life. If you can't do that you may well not have the grace of God that you think you have. We are to test ourselves so we'll be ready to meet Jesus when He returns. Work is how you know you are saved and ready to meet Him.
I think most Christians instantly think 'self-righteousness' when they hear the word 'works', not knowing that works are the result of grace in a person's life and, therefore, serve as evidence of the presence of that grace in a person. And, ultimately, as the verse above says, if you don't have that evidence you won't see the Lord.
"make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:10-11
Seek to confirm the presence of saving grace in your life by putting the word of God to work in your life. If you can't do that you may well not have the grace of God that you think you have. We are to test ourselves so we'll be ready to meet Jesus when He returns. Work is how you know you are saved and ready to meet Him.
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The NASB reads: Hebrews 12:14 - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).
Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).
Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
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Who said God needs evidence???? Huge category error on your part, a straw man, and the old "non sequitur." Try to follow along and stay on track?
Of course he knows who is his, yet that's not the point of the argument here. The fact remains there is such a thing as evidence of conversion.
Of course he knows who is his, yet that's not the point of the argument here. The fact remains there is such a thing as evidence of conversion.
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No you are in error.
Who are those you think were disagreeing with the post "judges" posted?
Truth is judges was quoting elo and HE believes God needs evidence.
Judges was agreeing with elo and you then say judges gets things right and then go to act as if works can count as evidence that MUST (your word) take place.
Your sword is dull and your horse is high brother.
You also gave a thumbs up to a works salvationist who made a strawman in that same post which you called "right".🤦♂️
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The evidentiary works in this life are essentially the weak ambulations of men barely back from the (spiritually) dead, and even those are blessings from the Holy Spirit, which we alone would not even be capable of. What those you have sided with are calling for are the Olympic level feats only Christ is capable of.
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Lol!!! Obviously you don’t know what a straw man is!
You’re really angry which explains why you post the way you do with insulting language and false accusations. You want me to name names? Whomever denies evidence of conversion teaches a false truncated gospel. So if the shoe fits wear it. Am I supposed to fear anyone that may be wearing it and need to adjust my statements for them? Nope. Not happening.
There is such a thing as evidence of conversion.
Your trouble is (along with many others) anytime you hear “works” or “evidence of conversion” you foolishly conflate these with “works salvation” or a “works Gospel.”
I agreed with his post because he got it correct for once. Agreeing with his post is not an endorsement of his works salvation teachings.
There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, it is sanctification. We grow in degrees of sanctification but we don’t grow in degrees of justification. So, in other words works nor evidence of conversion save, but they do denote true conversion, or not.
Now, show me where I said God needs evidence.
You’re really angry which explains why you post the way you do with insulting language and false accusations. You want me to name names? Whomever denies evidence of conversion teaches a false truncated gospel. So if the shoe fits wear it. Am I supposed to fear anyone that may be wearing it and need to adjust my statements for them? Nope. Not happening.
There is such a thing as evidence of conversion.
Your trouble is (along with many others) anytime you hear “works” or “evidence of conversion” you foolishly conflate these with “works salvation” or a “works Gospel.”
I agreed with his post because he got it correct for once. Agreeing with his post is not an endorsement of his works salvation teachings.
There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, it is sanctification. We grow in degrees of sanctification but we don’t grow in degrees of justification. So, in other words works nor evidence of conversion save, but they do denote true conversion, or not.
Now, show me where I said God needs evidence.
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Your first point is that I don't know what a strawman is. You are wrong, it is when someone presents a false argument that isn't being stated to tare down opposed to the argument at hand.
Judges first reply was a verse that did not actually go hand and hand with what elo was saying (God requires works to see His child as righteous) but was posted as a form of agreement.
Your second point is built on the false assumption I am angry. Nope. I am not. The rest of your next point is just you rambling... Maybe you are angry?
Your next point was actually a weak false accusation, and a strawman. The same one you agreed with.
"Your trouble is (along with many others) anytime you hear “works” or “evidence of conversion” you foolishly conflate these with “works salvation” or a “works Gospel.”"
This is false. I have been attacked on this forum and in real life for not only encouraging good works but rebuking evil works. This is just a garbage attempt to justify your silly agreement.🤦♂️
You're posting on a thread called "not by works" and the topic at hand is how to be seen as righteous before God....
If you want to talk about how a Christian ought to walk there is no one here going to speak against "works".(despite your claims)
Next
"There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, it is sanctification."
Yup. All here would agree.
Next
"Now, show me where I said God needs evidence"
Never once said YOU said that, or implied YOU said that. I added that any works of righteousness(which we do), ARE NOT evidence before God that we are His children which elo has disagreed with and judges as seemed to disagree with.
You falsely accused me of making a strawman when I did not.
Judges first reply was a verse that did not actually go hand and hand with what elo was saying (God requires works to see His child as righteous) but was posted as a form of agreement.
Your second point is built on the false assumption I am angry. Nope. I am not. The rest of your next point is just you rambling... Maybe you are angry?
Your next point was actually a weak false accusation, and a strawman. The same one you agreed with.
"Your trouble is (along with many others) anytime you hear “works” or “evidence of conversion” you foolishly conflate these with “works salvation” or a “works Gospel.”"
This is false. I have been attacked on this forum and in real life for not only encouraging good works but rebuking evil works. This is just a garbage attempt to justify your silly agreement.🤦♂️
You're posting on a thread called "not by works" and the topic at hand is how to be seen as righteous before God....
If you want to talk about how a Christian ought to walk there is no one here going to speak against "works".(despite your claims)
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"There is such a thing as evidence of conversion, it is sanctification."
Yup. All here would agree.
Next
"Now, show me where I said God needs evidence"
Never once said YOU said that, or implied YOU said that. I added that any works of righteousness(which we do), ARE NOT evidence before God that we are His children which elo has disagreed with and judges as seemed to disagree with.
You falsely accused me of making a strawman when I did not.
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He didn't make a straw man argument because he didn't represent anyone's views falsely in the post I responded to. He simply stated that there is a such thing as evidence of conversion. Which is really interesting, because you say you believe in it, then went on a angry tirade asking how I could agree with him. Um. LOL!!!!!!!!
No, you're angry. So angry in fact that you went off for me agreeing with something a person said which you say you actually believe yourself. You're so angry as soon as he speaks you tear into him before knowing what he really said.
Hmm. Straw man? You clicked "disagree" on my post that stated I believe in evidence of conversion, then went on a tirade of what I said, disagreeing with me on it, obviously blind to what I said.
So, since you disagreed with my entire post which was in its entirety defending evidence, you made it apparent you were against it.
That would make my response a reflection of you disagreeing with evidence of conversion. Or, you're just so angry you click disagree, and aren't seeing what I say, and that we both agree (allegedly) with evidence of conversion.
It appears you're going on callow tirades without reading what I said or comprehending it.
Nope, not all agree.
Oh, but you did imply it right here, so no, I didn't misrepresent you. You responded to my post with this. It doesn't address anything I stated, and is a complete straw man. No need to say "God doesn't need evidence" in response to me because it was never implied, thus your retort was out of context. The fact is that you're not actually reading what is stated, and are just going off on tangents:
No, you're angry. So angry in fact that you went off for me agreeing with something a person said which you say you actually believe yourself. You're so angry as soon as he speaks you tear into him before knowing what he really said.
Hmm. Straw man? You clicked "disagree" on my post that stated I believe in evidence of conversion, then went on a tirade of what I said, disagreeing with me on it, obviously blind to what I said.
So, since you disagreed with my entire post which was in its entirety defending evidence, you made it apparent you were against it.
That would make my response a reflection of you disagreeing with evidence of conversion. Or, you're just so angry you click disagree, and aren't seeing what I say, and that we both agree (allegedly) with evidence of conversion.
It appears you're going on callow tirades without reading what I said or comprehending it.
Nope, not all agree.
Oh, but you did imply it right here, so no, I didn't misrepresent you. You responded to my post with this. It doesn't address anything I stated, and is a complete straw man. No need to say "God doesn't need evidence" in response to me because it was never implied, thus your retort was out of context. The fact is that you're not actually reading what is stated, and are just going off on tangents:
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If I see something waddle, eats corn, quacks, has a long neck, swims, and poos everywhere, I can affirm that’s a duck.
If I see someone living a life that is contrary to how God‘s ppl are commanded to live, yet they claim they’re saved, I can safely say they are not. A child of God will act like a child of God. That doesn’t mean they won’t sin, rebel, as they can and do at times(not all but some do this), but their overall lifestyle will reflect the life of a Christian.
If I see someone living a life that is contrary to how God‘s ppl are commanded to live, yet they claim they’re saved, I can safely say they are not. A child of God will act like a child of God. That doesn’t mean they won’t sin, rebel, as they can and do at times(not all but some do this), but their overall lifestyle will reflect the life of a Christian.
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