Not By Works

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VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#128,561
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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#128,561
Elihoenai said:
Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ commands his Disciples to obey the Law, as he obeys the Law.
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NO HE DID NOT!

HE SAID "IF YOU LOVE ME" WHICH IS BORN AGAIN, THAT IS GOD'S AGAPE LOVE, ROM. 5:5, THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO OUR HEARTS OR THE HUMAN SPIRIT. OUT OF THAT CHANGE IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT, OUR NEW NATURE {BORN AGAIN}, WE WILL WANT TO LOVE HIM BACK, BY STRIVING TO KEEP, which the GREEK VERB TENSE OF KEEP, makes it CLEAR: will keep My commands.


John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


The Difference is YOU imply you Have to KEEP THEM,
AND THE TRUTH IS IF YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN, AND IF YOU LOVE HIM WITH THAT SAME KIND OF AGAPE LOVE HE PUT IN YOU,
YOU WILL WANT TO STRIVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS AS AN ACT OF AGAPE LOVE.

You cannot keep HIS Commands Perfectly, and Jame 2:10 tells you if you fail one time, that you are GUILTY OF THE WHOLE LAW!

James 2:10 (HCSB)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of ⌊breaking it⌋ all.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Romans 3:20 (NKJV)
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:12 (HCSB)
12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. [.That is President Donald Trump, if you are an American.]

1582336424650.jpeg

Any time you exceed the POSTED SPEED LIMIT,
according to JAMES 2:10, you are GUILTY OF THE ENTIRE LAW!

DEEDS will NEVER earn a Ticket to HEAVEN, NOT EVEN PART OF IT!

JESUS PAID OUR SIN DEPT IN FULL. We can only AGAPE LOVE HIM BACK.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#128,562
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#128,562
EleventhHour said:
She meant that in context of salvation

Also there a huge difference between pursuing good works as part of our calling....and good works as proof.

Do I sense a shift in your thinking?
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He kind of contradicts himself....he worships Calvin, pushes Calvinism which says the saved will be saved regardless and it is irresistible yet one MUST HAVE WORKS......actually rather hilarious at the end of the day...
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#128,563
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#128,563
JohnR7 said:
People are always accusing others of what they are guilty of. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 7:19) "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (Matthew 15:6) All you would have had to do was run a search on "tree" & "fire".
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I do not need to run a search...the parable clearly says MEN CUT BRANCHES and burn them.....God prunes to bring forth fruit...he doea not cast away his children....you must serve a weak god that does not honor his word!!

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#128,565
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
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#128,565
star said:
LOLOL. Those who pursue "works" are "working themselves needlessly.
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No, it's not needless.
Peter says to make every effort to add works to your faith in order to confirm that you are saved, and that if you do that you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom. That doesn't sound very 'needless' to me.

make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:5-11

Note, he says the person who does not have works attached to his faith has forgotten they have been cleansed from their past sins. They have let the gospel slip from their hearts. That person is in danger of stumbling...........if they haven't already.

Working isn't as needless as you say it is.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#128,566
#128,566
Guojing said:
Salvation is always by grace from God.

They do not show faith like us, by ceasing from our works and trusting in the faith OF Christ on the cross.

They show faith by building an ark, offering the right sacrifice, hiding spies etc etc, see Hebrews.
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So they are better than us. Or we are better than them?

sorry man, you keep digging deeper
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#128,567
#128,567
Judges1318 said:
No, it's not needless.
Peter says to make every effort to add works to your faith in order to confirm that you are saved, and that if you do that you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom. That doesn't sound very 'needless' to me.

make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." - 2 Peter 1:5-11

Note, he says the person who does not have works attached to his faith has forgotten they have been cleansed from their past sins. They have let the gospel slip from their hearts. That person is in danger of stumbling...........if they haven't already.

Working isn't as needless as you say it is.
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With regards to salvation, yes works are needless.

Again, you misinterpret her words.
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#128,568
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
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#128,568
Switching go
Judges1318 said:
Doing work to have righteousness credited to you is one thing. Trusting in Christ to have righteousness credited to you is quite another. They are not the same.

"5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness" - Romans 4:5

So you can see, trusting in Christ, and continuing to trust in Christ is hardly 'works'.
You're not trying to save yourself by works by continuing to trust in Christ.
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I'm sorry, I really tried to believe you had a point, but all I could see was "Leggo my copyrighted breakfast food item."

Works for salvation REQUIRES perfect works.
BELIEF or FAITH for salvation REQUIRES perfect faith.
There is no way to convince me that you have perfect faith, ESPECIALLY if you believe that it's not work. Being constantly vigilant to remove all doubt requires an immense level of effort. The same level of effort I have to put in believing my house is okay is NOTHING to the level of effort you need for a Christian faith. You're not just trying to cancel out YOUR OWN sinful influence, but the sinful influence of those around you. And we're not even talking about trying NOT TO SIN.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#128,569
Nov 16, 2019
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#128,569
Tellion said:
Being constantly vigilant to remove all doubt requires an immense level of effort.
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We're not talking about doubt.
Everyone struggles with doubt sooner or later, I suppose.
Sometimes when things get tough I wonder if it's all true.
Sometimes when I see and hear how mislead the church has gotten I wonder if it's all true.
But the one thing that remains is the hope God has placed in me about my sins being forgiven and me being reconciled to Him.
I won't let that go.
But I know of those who have.
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#128,571
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
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#128,571
Judges1318 said:
We're not talking about doubt.
Everyone struggles with doubt sooner or later, I suppose.
Sometimes when things get tough I wonder if it's all true.
Sometimes when I see and hear how mislead the church has gotten I wonder if it's all true.
But the one thing that remains is the hope God has placed in me about my sins being forgiven and me being reconciled to Him.
I won't let that go.
But I know of those who have.
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Doubt is the leaven of belief. It makes a continuous belief imperfect.
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#128,572
Jan 8, 2003
279
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#128,572
Judges1318 said:
We're not talking about doubt.
Everyone struggles with doubt sooner or later, I suppose.
Sometimes when things get tough I wonder if it's all true.
Sometimes when I see and hear how mislead the church has gotten I wonder if it's all true.
But the one thing that remains is the hope God has placed in me about my sins being forgiven and me being reconciled to Him.
I won't let that go.
But I know of those who have.
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Additionally, if you're trying to sell me a filthy (humanly filthy, not directly you, but all humanity) belief full of human sin as a requirement to satisfy a perfect and just God, then you and I have a far greater gap in our understanding of God's holiness than you realize.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#128,574
#128,574
Tellion said:
Additionally, if you're trying to sell me a filthy (humanly filthy, not directly you, but all humanity) belief full of human sin as a requirement to satisfy a perfect and just God, then you and I have a far greater gap in our understanding of God's holiness than you realize.
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Here I disagree :(
Where is belief described as filthy?
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#128,575
Nov 16, 2019
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860
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#128,575
Tellion said:
Additionally, if you're trying to sell me a filthy (humanly filthy, not directly you, but all humanity) belief full of human sin as a requirement to satisfy a perfect and just God, then you and I have a far greater gap in our understanding of God's holiness than you realize.
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I'd have to think through what you're saying here to get your point.
I'll be back.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#128,577
#128,577
Tellion said:
Hmm, you make a fair point. Guess I'll have to look for another adjective. Maybe it's just my association of all things imperfect with filth.... ?
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The entire gospel of John is a call to believe....used 98 times....certainly it is something God requires if us...
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#128,578
Jan 8, 2003
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#128,578
EleventhHour said:
Here I disagree :(
Where is belief described as filthy?
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Although, not a direct comparison, I'm sure the Jews saw Paul's view of his and all other works in at least a similar light. I'm not trashing the faith of Christ, being perfect and sufficient for all sinners, mind you. And I'm certainly not discouraging belief in Christ. I can get aggressive in my descriptions where sin affects the human heart though.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#128,579
#128,579
Tellion said:
Although, not a direct comparison, I'm sure the Jews saw Paul's view of his and all other works in at least a similar light. I'm not trashing the faith of Christ, being perfect and sufficient for all sinners, mind you. And I'm certainly not discouraging belief in Christ. I can get aggressive in my descriptions where sin affects the human heart though.
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Interesting... well I am not sure how you view total depravity ... but I think Calvin seemed to have much loathing of himself and towards people and certainly some of his dogma reflected this.
 
Tellion

Tellion

Junior Member
#128,580
Jan 8, 2003
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#128,580
EleventhHour said:
Interesting... well I am not sure how you view total depravity ... but I think Calvin seemed to have much loathing of himself and towards people and certainly some of his dogma reflected this.
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I can't speak to that. I don't know that I hold all agreement with Calvin. I don't have a hateful view of humanity. The Trinity loved us enough to work out a plan for salvation, and I certainly don't claim a hold on the book of Life. I see the love of Christ all around me. Here too. But the truth is, not a single man has anything to present to God that would not condemn him to hell, works or faith. ***Edit*** apart from Christ.
 
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