Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
As long as a person is still believing in Christ even the worst of struggles with sin is covered by Christ.
And even when a believer willfully sins and purposely abandons the struggle with sin and goes back to unbelief, I think God still gives that person a chance to reconsider. How much time and space He gives them to come back depends on the person and their particular circumstances. But surely, if they don't come back in that allotted time God will shut the door and they will not be allowed to come back. And that is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about.
I'm of the opinion that you have to be pretty determined to not want forgiveness in Christ to get to that point. That person knows they are at that point and they don't care that they are. That kind of in your face trampling on the blood of Christ is unforgivable. No sacrifice remains for that person to come back to God. They're done. It's over.
And even when a believer willfully sins and purposely abandons the struggle with sin and goes back to unbelief, I think God still gives that person a chance to reconsider. How much time and space He gives them to come back depends on the person and their particular circumstances. But surely, if they don't come back in that allotted time God will shut the door and they will not be allowed to come back. And that is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about.
I'm of the opinion that you have to be pretty determined to not want forgiveness in Christ to get to that point. That person knows they are at that point and they don't care that they are. That kind of in your face trampling on the blood of Christ is unforgivable. No sacrifice remains for that person to come back to God. They're done. It's over.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
@Micaiah-imla, many attack each other on this thread, but there's no reason for any of us to do so. I'm not saying you are attacking me, I'm just saying, "Watch out for the ditch! Don't fall in! Let's take the high road."
You and all of us are loved so greatly by God and we know that He wants us to walk in His Truth and be in fellowship with Him and be kind to each other.
=============
Now, in response to your post....
It's best to NOT put what was written in a "box" and label it for only a select group. What was written was to be read and heard - it was for whoever has an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying........ only God knows who has an ear.
I'm so glad you brought up Paul, let's talk about him. Paul is proof that God saves even Pharisees that persecute and kill His believers. Oh, the Love of God......I am in awe....
Paul was raised a Pharisee and sat under the teachings of Gamaliel.
(Sidenote....... Do you think Gamaliel was listening in the temple those 3 days when the 12 year old Yeshua/Jesus was about His Father's business in the Temple - teaching the scriptures? I've often pondered if it was Gamaliel that asked, "Whose child is this?" Anyway, the scriptures don't say...).
Acts 22:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Paul was ignorant of the grace of God, He knew all the law but did not know the Truth - how Yeshua/Jesus had fulfilled all the law in His own human body - all the "works of the law" were recorded as done in His Body. His Blood takes our sin away and His Body gives us the Human Fulfillment of ALL the Law which is the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
ALL WORKS that pertain to SALVATION have been COMPLETELY done by Yeshua/Jesus Christ for us. Salvation is a GIFT.
The works we do now are simply good works that are to be done in the power of the Holy Spirit to promote the Kingdom of God in the Earth by witnessing of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, NOT to MAINTAIN our SALVATION.
Salvation is the "work of Yeshua/Jesus Christ ALONE in us and for us."
The Fruit of Good Works is the "work of the Holy Spirit ALONE in us and for us."
To believe and receive by faith because of a great love for the Truth of the Word of God that the Holy Spirit reveals to us is the "work of the Believer ALONE."
As a Pharisee, Paul was obeying the Law, without knowledge of the Truth.
During Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, he came face to face with Truth and finally understood who he was - a blind man with scales over his eyes - it would take a miracle for him to see.
After Paul's conversion, he could see clearly and no longer followed the law. He even went willingly to the Gentiles to preach Salvation.
Paul preached to let no man judge you anymore, he even stopped judging himself. He knew there was no condemnation for those that are IN CHRIST.
This life we live as Christians is one of FAITH and LOVE.........NOT Doubt and Fear.
You and all of us are loved so greatly by God and we know that He wants us to walk in His Truth and be in fellowship with Him and be kind to each other.
=============
Now, in response to your post....
It's best to NOT put what was written in a "box" and label it for only a select group. What was written was to be read and heard - it was for whoever has an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying........ only God knows who has an ear.
I'm so glad you brought up Paul, let's talk about him. Paul is proof that God saves even Pharisees that persecute and kill His believers. Oh, the Love of God......I am in awe....
Paul was raised a Pharisee and sat under the teachings of Gamaliel.
(Sidenote....... Do you think Gamaliel was listening in the temple those 3 days when the 12 year old Yeshua/Jesus was about His Father's business in the Temple - teaching the scriptures? I've often pondered if it was Gamaliel that asked, "Whose child is this?" Anyway, the scriptures don't say...).
Acts 22:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Paul was ignorant of the grace of God, He knew all the law but did not know the Truth - how Yeshua/Jesus had fulfilled all the law in His own human body - all the "works of the law" were recorded as done in His Body. His Blood takes our sin away and His Body gives us the Human Fulfillment of ALL the Law which is the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
ALL WORKS that pertain to SALVATION have been COMPLETELY done by Yeshua/Jesus Christ for us. Salvation is a GIFT.
The works we do now are simply good works that are to be done in the power of the Holy Spirit to promote the Kingdom of God in the Earth by witnessing of Yeshua/Jesus Christ, NOT to MAINTAIN our SALVATION.
Salvation is the "work of Yeshua/Jesus Christ ALONE in us and for us."
The Fruit of Good Works is the "work of the Holy Spirit ALONE in us and for us."
To believe and receive by faith because of a great love for the Truth of the Word of God that the Holy Spirit reveals to us is the "work of the Believer ALONE."
As a Pharisee, Paul was obeying the Law, without knowledge of the Truth.
During Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, he came face to face with Truth and finally understood who he was - a blind man with scales over his eyes - it would take a miracle for him to see.
After Paul's conversion, he could see clearly and no longer followed the law. He even went willingly to the Gentiles to preach Salvation.
Paul preached to let no man judge you anymore, he even stopped judging himself. He knew there was no condemnation for those that are IN CHRIST.
This life we live as Christians is one of FAITH and LOVE.........NOT Doubt and Fear.
-
2
- Show all
Precious sister.
I know you read my testimony the other day.
The fact you are worried I say means you have nothing to worry about.
If one could fall away and did then they would not give two hoots. They would not even give it a second thought. To them it's all garbage.
A person can backslide and still be saved.
The difference is?
Maybe this will help.
I backslid for a long time.
I wasn't happy at all. There were reasons for this which eventually God dealt with.
Even whilst struggling with what I was doing I was not happy.
I knew what the truth was but I wasn't setting me free.
When God dealt with issues (a Biggie being sexually abused).
I hated what I was doing but was constantly calling out to God. I even asked God to kill me so I would know where I was going (I knew my wife and kids were safe and would be taken care off)
Here is what Paul says
Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
If we look at V8 we find this in
Deuteronomy 30:11-14
The Choice of Life or Death
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
There are two kinds of righteousness, by works or by faith. One is inaccessible, the other is very accessible. Paul uses the words of Deut. 30:11–14 to demonstrate that righteousness by faith is not far off and inaccessible, but is as near as a person’s mouth and heart. All one has to do is repent, believe in Jesus, and confess that belief (NKJV study notes)
So if the passages that upset you based on what others say in Hebrews is correct then one would have to unconfess per Romans above and go back obtaining righteousness by works and reject the righteousness given through faith per Romans.
You have not done that, the reason being is because you are back. You may be in a position whereby you think you need to do works in order to be saved.
You don't have to do good works to be saved, you do good works because you are saved.
Big difference. Do not let satan and those he uses to steal your joy.
Reject it and place your joy in Jesus, the author and perfector of your faith.
You are safe in him and him alone.
I know you read my testimony the other day.
The fact you are worried I say means you have nothing to worry about.
If one could fall away and did then they would not give two hoots. They would not even give it a second thought. To them it's all garbage.
A person can backslide and still be saved.
The difference is?
Maybe this will help.
I backslid for a long time.
I wasn't happy at all. There were reasons for this which eventually God dealt with.
Even whilst struggling with what I was doing I was not happy.
I knew what the truth was but I wasn't setting me free.
When God dealt with issues (a Biggie being sexually abused).
I hated what I was doing but was constantly calling out to God. I even asked God to kill me so I would know where I was going (I knew my wife and kids were safe and would be taken care off)
Here is what Paul says
Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
If we look at V8 we find this in
Deuteronomy 30:11-14
The Choice of Life or Death
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
There are two kinds of righteousness, by works or by faith. One is inaccessible, the other is very accessible. Paul uses the words of Deut. 30:11–14 to demonstrate that righteousness by faith is not far off and inaccessible, but is as near as a person’s mouth and heart. All one has to do is repent, believe in Jesus, and confess that belief (NKJV study notes)
So if the passages that upset you based on what others say in Hebrews is correct then one would have to unconfess per Romans above and go back obtaining righteousness by works and reject the righteousness given through faith per Romans.
You have not done that, the reason being is because you are back. You may be in a position whereby you think you need to do works in order to be saved.
You don't have to do good works to be saved, you do good works because you are saved.
Big difference. Do not let satan and those he uses to steal your joy.
Reject it and place your joy in Jesus, the author and perfector of your faith.
You are safe in him and him alone.
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all