Not By Works

[John146]

I am amazed at those who still can not resolve romans 4 and James 2 and show how they do not contradict each other. and make them flow as all scriptur flows. Without having to add things which are not found in scripture.

Know the audience. Simple. For you to resolve James, you must demand that we are justified by what others see in our obedience. “That’s true faith.”

 

[John146]

So eternal life is not eternal?

Remember, Christ died for their sins too.. Or did he lie?

You claim the OT believers could not be born of Christ because Christ had not died yet,

now you say, Even after Christ died, they can not be born in Christ.

That sort of defeats your first argument does it not?

Nope. The age of grace through faith alone ends with the gathering of the body of Christ. What if those saints take the mark? What happens? It doesn’t matter because they’re saved by grace through faith? Why the warning not to take the mark?

 

[John146]

Yawn

God said Abraham was made righteous in gen 15

I will take God at his word. And not your twist at what God said about abraham.

He was not saved by the law. Or by any law..

Yes, but when was he justified? James 2. We’ve got something better. We’re made righteous and justified the moment we believe the gospel of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God’s righteousness is through the faith of Christ. This righteousness was not available to those OT saints.

Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

See how you missed the whole point in vs 21. How the righteousness of God without the law is manifest. BEING WITNESSED BY THE LAW AND PROPHETS?

No man has been saved by works my friend, The penalty of sin is death. DEATH is the ONLY atonement God will take.

And the DEATH of bulls and GOATS were not a substititute

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Know the audience. Simple. For you to resolve James, you must demand that we are justified by what others see in our obedience. “That’s true faith.”

I do know James audience

Licentious believers who thought that through mere belief they were saved and could act any way they want, People who had NO faith in God. as evidenced by the fact they even though they went to church, THEY HAD NO LIVING FRUIT (WORKS)

James calls them out..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. The age of grace through faith alone ends with the gathering of the body of Christ. What if those saints take the mark? What happens? It doesn’t matter because they’re saved by grace through faith? Why the warning not to take the mark?

I am not going to get into a hypothetical that has not happened yet

How do you know a believer would take the mark?

If thats your ONLY proof. You are left in a deep hole when we take the rest of scripture

 

[John146]

the sacrifice of bull and goat can NEVER take away sin

The term never proves you wrong.

Its like the term eternal.

For some reason. it has people confused. because they can not understand what those words mean.

Once again, The sacrificial system was not in play for MUCH of Israels history. Because the temple lay in ruin

Your condemning them all to hell.. Way to go there

I could give lots more. Those sacrifices could forgive sins, but not take them away permanently. If they did not offer up those sacrifices, they would die in their sin. No Abraham bosom for them.

Leviticus 4
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.


Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:31
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the Lord; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:35
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:13
And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, but when was he justified? James 2. We’ve got something better. We’re made righteous and justified the moment we believe the gospel of Christ.

When was he justified?

Rom 4:
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” (Justified) 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

He was justified in Gen 15. Even David understood this basic fact of the gospel.

Ths proves even the OT before and during the law was saved by grace through faith NOT OF WORKS

 

[John146]

I am not going to get into a hypothetical that has not happened yet

How do you know a believer would take the mark?

If thats your ONLY proof. You are left in a deep hole when we take the rest of scripture

Lol, we can’t even make it a week without toilet paper before panicking. Try enduring the tribulation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I could give lots more. Those sacrifices could forgive sins, but not take them away permanently. If they did not offer up those sacrifices, they would die in their sin. No Abraham bosom for them.

Leviticus 4
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.


Leviticus 4:26
And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:31
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the Lord; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:35
And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:10
And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:13
And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

Ok, then explain how daniel and any jew was forgiven after the temple was destroyed. Where there was no sacrifice given for the rest of Daniels life, and no sacrifice was even given UNTIL the temple was rebuilt?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol, we can’t even make it a week without toilet paper before panicking. Try enduring the tribulation.

lol

Still saved by grace through faith

 

[John146]

When was he justified?

Rom 4:
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” (Justified) 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

He was justified in Gen 15. Even David understood this basic fact of the gospel.

Ths proves even the OT before and during the law was saved by grace through faith NOT OF WORKS

For Paul’s audience in Romans, justification is without works. Paul uses Abraham before he was circumcised. James using Abraham after His circumcision to show the Jew of his justification.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

[John146]

lol

Still saved by grace through faith

Not if one takes the mark. They have fallen away and sold out to the anti christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For Paul’s audience in Romans, justification is without works. Paul uses Abraham before he was circumcised. James using Abraham after His circumcision to show the Jew of his justification.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So Abraham was not justified for decades after he believed.

Ok man..

Whatever

Your context of James is wrong. Thats why you can not understand what is being said.

And your giving dispensationalism a bad name.

 

[John146]

I am not going to get into a hypothetical that has not happened yet

How do you know a believer would take the mark?

If thats your ONLY proof. You are left in a deep hole when we take the rest of scripture

The sacrifices could forgive sin, but not clear them. Their sin was in remission. Only the blood of Jesus could take away sin permanently.

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

[Judges1318]

That makes you the final authority. No thank you.

But doesn't you picking the KJV only make you the final authority as well?

 

[John146]

I do know James audience

Let’s take a look at the address.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Can you show me in Scripture where the term “twelve tribes “ means something other than the nation of Israel as a whole? I can post every usage of the term if you want me too. Every usage refers to the entire nation of Israel, never, never, never a called out group from that nation.

 

[John146]

But doesn't you picking the KJV only make you the final authority as well?

Nope. I’ve given over that right to God’s preservation of His word.

 

[Lightskin]

First off, Abraham did not have the salvation we enjoy. If he did, he would have been present with the Lord upon death. Abraham was not made a new creature in Christ, sealed for the day of redemption, redeemed by the blood of Jesus, made a partaker in Christ, etc.

When was Abraham justified? Use scripture please.

The Rich Man and Lazarus ~~ Luke 16

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Isaiah 1:11-14 (HCSB)
11 “What are all your sacrifices to Me?” asks the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I have no desire for the blood of bulls, lambs, or male goats.
12 When you come to appear before Me, who requires this from you— ⌊this⌋ trampling of My courts?
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.


YOU SEE PHARISEES THOUGHT WE CAN DO THAT, WHEN THE PRICE THE SHOULD PAY WAS MORE THAN TWO OR MORE LIFETIMES OF SACRIFICES. NOW WE GOT A NEW GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO THINK WE CAN DO THAT

While I agree that Dispesationalism is an error, in the passages you cited (Isaiah 1:11-14) you seem to be implying that God was not pleased with those sacrifices. The key to this passage lies in the next verses you omitted, Isaiah 11:16-17.

“Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well.”

The sacrifices were not the source of God’s frustration, it was the people’s continuance in evil doings after offering sacrificing.

This same reasoning can be applied to the Once Saved, Always Saved follower.