Not By Works

[DorothyMae]

Thank you Dorothy, you gave me exactly what I needed. I can call you a Sister in CHRIST, now. I did not know you were from Germany, so I will define my terms from now on. I have found, that Terminology, become a critical item, when every one assumes they know what the other is talking about. For example, the SIN NATURE, that I mentioned, is not the same meaning to the word you use.

Here in the USA, it only means, we inherited the "Propensity to SIN", for the WHOLE HUMAN RACE. NO shifting blame on Adam, it is our PERSON SIN, and we accept full blame. We know that Term is not in the BIBLE, but there are NUMEROUS OTHER TERMS that we chose to name just like Adam was commanded by GOD to name that animals.

Do you know how I KNOW you are BORN AGAIN ? ? ?

Above is a paragraph that I highlighted a statement in Purple and Mint Green.

THOSE KIND OF DESIRES ARE NEVER FOUND IN A COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIAN.

Here is another suggestion: I usually like to pick up a large sandwich just before I leave the Grocery Store. That is so if I see a transient holding a sign HUNGRY! That way I will have something to give to him or her, not money, so then cannot spend it on cigarettes or booze

Have a good day, Sister.

Now I have made myself hungry for one of these.

Dear VCO,

I am not German, but American married to a German. I was pretty sure you would know that I am a real Christian because you are one. Nice idea with the sandwich. I sometimes buy breakfast for a homeless guy at the train station on the way to work if someone else has not already done so.

I do not feel like debating OSAS very deeply at this time. I do not see that those scriptures you give (I have seen them all before) say what you say and I can openly read the ones that tell that people will fall away from the faith which I have yet to meet an OSAS believer who could read them and accept the words at face value. And Jesus himself said them. I am sorry for the people who neglect their salvation because of this theology but I cannot change that. I am sorry the focus is so much on the self and being saved. If I could, I would encourage believers to pursue loving God with all your being and loving your neighbor as yourself and stop being taken up with your own anything to include salvation. Moses loved God and man so much so that he was willing to give up his salvation if that was going to change the situation. That is not a demonstration of OSAS but one of great love. Loving God and man is better than loving your salvation.

Thanks for asking and being patient. I really appreciate it.

Gott mit dir,
Dorothy Mae

 

[DorothyMae]

The word in Greek is metanoia... it means to change one's mind.
The context determines what is in view.

The word itself carries no meaning of "penatetia" "penance" as used in by Catholics

I did not deny forgiveness and seeking forgiveness as part of salvation.

Yes you did.

We need to repent (change our minds) about our "self righteousness" "works" "I am good enough syndrome" thinking it will give us access to Heaven... when God states they are as filthy rags.

Contrition for sins is a Catholic spin on the Gospel. and not the meaning of the word repent.

You certainly do deny it. You call repentance of sin a Catholic doctrine.

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes you did.


You certainly do deny it. You call repentance of sin a Catholic doctrine.

The absence of words does not constitute denial.

You came to this thread in an accusatory tone and it continues.

In the Old Latin and Latin Vulgate metanoia was translated as paenitentia which came to mean penance or acts of penance that had to be done if one hoped to obtain grace.
Penitence is sorrow for sin.

The true meaning of metanoia is “to change the mind.”
The context determines the meaning... the word itself does not mean "penitence."

Scripture does say in Acts 20:21, "repentance toward God" (change of mind), and "faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[DorothyMae]

The absence of words does not constitute denial.

You came to this thread in an accusatory tone and it continues.

Nonsense. You accuse me of an accusatory tone all the while accusing me. If that is not ironic.

In the Old Latin and Latin Vulgate metanoia was translated as paenitentia which came to mean penance or acts of penance that had to be done if one hoped to obtain grace.
Penitence is sorrow for sin.

The true meaning of metanoia is “to change the mind.”
The context determines the meaning... the word itself does not mean "penitence."

Scripture does say in Acts 20:21, "repentance toward God" (change of mind), and "faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

So for you, it is just changing your mind. No sorrow for what you did to other people like falsely accuse them of having an accusatory tone, is that it? Just having a different mind or deciding to do something different.

Is that on the scale of deciding to have the hamburger instead of the salad or deciding that maybe speaking falsely about others is something that you find is not to your liking and so you decide to change your words without having to bother to ask forgiveness of GOd and man. Is that what repentance is for you? Simply changing your mind about a matter. Pretty cheap. Peter fell down at the feet of Jesus and was not merely changing his mind either about his own self-righteousness nor about any other matter. He actually repented of his sins, not changed his mind, dry and emotionless.

For anyone interested, the report of anyone who repented before God was one of deep sorrow for what they did wrong, asking forgiveness of God and actually making restitution to the one they had wronged which would have included asking man's forgiveness for the wrong done. It was usually described as an emotional experience. It was not merely changing your mind. Never described as a man simply changed his mind and that was repentance. THat is really cheap "repentance."

 

[EleventhHour]

For anyone interested,

Funny,

Go argue with the Greek language.

Maybe do some research on what was meant by "mind" within classical Greek society.

Salvation is by grace through faith not by human works or emotions lest any man should boast.

 

[VCO]

Dear VCO,

I am not German, but American married to a German. I was pretty sure you would know that I am a real Christian because you are one. Nice idea with the sandwich. I sometimes buy breakfast for a homeless guy at the train station on the way to work if someone else has not already done so.

I do not feel like debating OSAS very deeply at this time. I do not see that those scriptures you give (I have seen them all before) say what you say and I can openly read the ones that tell that people will fall away from the faith which I have yet to meet an OSAS believer who could read them and accept the words at face value. And Jesus himself said them. I am sorry for the people who neglect their salvation because of this theology but I cannot change that. I am sorry the focus is so much on the self and being saved. If I could, I would encourage believers to pursue loving God with all your being and loving your neighbor as yourself and stop being taken up with your own anything to include salvation. Moses loved God and man so much so that he was willing to give up his salvation if that was going to change the situation. That is not a demonstration of OSAS but one of great love. Loving God and man is better than loving your salvation.

Thanks for asking and being patient. I really appreciate it.

Gott mit dir,
Dorothy Mae

Most of what you say is part of OUR BELIEF also, but NOT PART OF SALVATION. IT SPAWNS OUT OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM and OUR LOVE FOR OTHERS. IT NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION. You seem to want to combine Salvation of our human spirit, with LOVE, and with bodily SANCTIFICATION. You cannot LOVE, unless you are Born Again first. You get SAVED in a moment when you FIRST BELIEVED, then after you are SAVED, You LOVE with GODLY LOVE and SANCTIFICATION takes PLACE.

In the USA, OSAS is all about that GREAT LOVE that GOD POURED into our hearts. I am having a hard time believing OSAS is so totally different over there. It does not compute, that OSAS is WITHOUT LOVE, while here it is essential that YOU HAVE LOVE FIRST, than Sanctification takes place. You made on statement, that may have revealed the problem. See the part of your Post that I put in RED. Don't you know that JESUS TAUGHT EVERYONE who came to HIM. HE KNEW MANY were COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS, BUT HE TAUGHT THEM TOO. WHY ? ?

Romans 10:14-17 (NCV)
14 But before people can ask the Lord for help, they must believe in him; and before they can believe in him, they must hear about him; and for them to hear about the Lord, someone must tell them;
15 and before someone can go and tell them, that person must be sent. It is written, “How beautiful is the person who comes to bring good news.“
16 But not all the Jews accepted the good news. Isaiah said, “Lord, who believed what we told them?“
17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News, and people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

Our Churches have more NOT SAVED followers of CHRIST, than SAVED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, but we KNOW if those some might call PHONY Christians, sit in our pews LONG ENOUGH, they might HEAR with UNDERSTANDING and some of them will BECOME real Born Again CHRISTIANS. That is why JESUS TAUGHT BOTH GROUPS, and WHY WE teach BOTH GROUPS TOO. We only count genuine OSAS Born Again Christians, and not the pretenders, though.

John 6:66 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Disciples does not mean SAVED, but rather only FOLLOWERS.
None of them were ever SAVED! How do I know?

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

John 17:12 (HCSB)
12 While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.


No, I do not expect you to understand, but I do want you realize we OSAS BELIEVERS have very biblical reasons for our BELIEFS.

Have a good morning.

 

[cv5]

Dear VCO,

I am not German, but American married to a German. I was pretty sure you would know that I am a real Christian because you are one. Nice idea with the sandwich. I sometimes buy breakfast for a homeless guy at the train station on the way to work if someone else has not already done so.

I do not feel like debating OSAS very deeply at this time. I do not see that those scriptures you give (I have seen them all before) say what you say and I can openly read the ones that tell that people will fall away from the faith which I have yet to meet an OSAS believer who could read them and accept the words at face value. And Jesus himself said them. I am sorry for the people who neglect their salvation because of this theology but I cannot change that. I am sorry the focus is so much on the self and being saved. If I could, I would encourage believers to pursue loving God with all your being and loving your neighbor as yourself and stop being taken up with your own anything to include salvation. Moses loved God and man so much so that he was willing to give up his salvation if that was going to change the situation. That is not a demonstration of OSAS but one of great love. Loving God and man is better than loving your salvation.

Thanks for asking and being patient. I really appreciate it.

Gott mit dir,
Dorothy Mae

I would pursue loving Israel with equal fervor.
BTW, There is not one scholarly commentator who believes as you do that Israel is the great whore of Rev 18.
It is however perfectly clear that the woman of Rev 12 is Israel.

 

[cv5]

We need to repent (change our minds) about our "self righteousness" "works" "I am good enough syndrome" thinking it will give us access to Heaven... when God states they are as filthy rags.

Contrition for sins is a Catholic spin on the Gospel. and not the meaning of the word repent.

Yup. Sounds like Roman catholic mischief to me.

 

[DorothyMae]

Funny,

Go argue with the Greek language.

Maybe do some research on what was meant by "mind" within classical Greek society.

Salvation is by grace through faith not by human works or emotions lest any man should boast.

You can mock and laugh at me but by doing so you reveal
the fruit of your theology. It is not Agape love.....a tree reveals its fruit.

Do you also just change your mind instead of asking forgiveness when you have wronged others?

 

[DorothyMae]

Most of what you say is part of OUR BELIEF also, but NOT PART OF SALVATION. IT SPAWNS OUT OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM and OUR LOVE FOR OTHERS. IT NEVER HAS BEEN PART OF SALVATION. You seem to want to combine Salvation of our human spirit, with LOVE, and with bodily SANCTIFICATION. You cannot LOVE, unless you are Born Again first. You get SAVED in a moment when you FIRST BELIEVED, then after you are SAVED, You LOVE with GODLY LOVE and SANCTIFICATION takes PLACE.

Dear VCO, I work in science and test theories as a part of that training. So let us test this theology. Do the people in your church find that when the become Christiains, interpersonal relationships are so vastly different such that indications of godly love are seen in no divorce, no hard or hurtful words wihtout godly love quickly resulting in reconciliation. Christian teenagers are lovingly obedient to their parents and so on. If this is not the case, then what happened to the godly love that come in unbidden that is so powerfully inspiring christians to behave that way?

If you tell me it is a process then I ask upon what does it depend? If God is pouring this love so that you automatically have it, how can that be a process since it depends solely upon being saved and nothing else? I know you call this sanctification but you have two positions that don't fit.

On one hand this love is poured out without any effort on the part of the recepient. Since the recepient is much weaker than the giver, and since this love is a powerful motivation, it doesn't make sense that human weakness is more powerful than this love. Why should it be a process? Salvation is not a process.

In the USA, OSAS is all about that GREAT LOVE that GOD POURED into our hearts. I am having a hard time believing OSAS is so totally different over there. It does not compute, that OSAS is WITHOUT LOVE, while here it is essential that YOU HAVE LOVE FIRST, than Sanctification takes place. You made on statement, that may have revealed the problem. See the part of your Post that I put in RED. Don't you know that JESUS TAUGHT EVERYONE who came to HIM. HE KNEW MANY were COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS, BUT HE TAUGHT THEM TOO. WHY ? ?

OSAS is an AMerican invention so I don't know any Germans who believe this except the Calvinists. But of course they believe salvation is a done deal before anyone was born.

Romans 10:14-17 (NCV)
14 But before people can ask the Lord for help, they must believe in him; and before they can believe in him, they must hear about him; and for them to hear about the Lord, someone must tell them;
15 and before someone can go and tell them, that person must be sent. It is written, “How beautiful is the person who comes to bring good news.“
16 But not all the Jews accepted the good news. Isaiah said, “Lord, who believed what we told them?“
17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News, and people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

Our Churches have more NOT SAVED followers of CHRIST, than SAVED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, but we KNOW if those some might call PHONY Christians, sit in our pews LONG ENOUGH, they might HEAR with UNDERSTANDING and some of them will BECOME real Born Again CHRISTIANS. That is why JESUS TAUGHT BOTH GROUPS, and WHY WE teach BOTH GROUPS TOO. We only count genuine OSAS Born Again Christians, and not the pretenders, though.

John 6:66 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Disciples does not mean SAVED, but rather only FOLLOWERS.
None of them were ever SAVED! How do I know?

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

John 17:12 (HCSB)
12 While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.


No, I do not expect you to understand, but I do want you realize we OSAS BELIEVERS have very biblical reasons for our BELIEFS.

Have a good morning.

So you know those who are not saved by them later leaving? The standard of agape love is not a measure, right?

VCO, I understand perfectly the OSAS position. I have talked with numerous OSAS believers. Lots and lots of them. And one thing that has marked many of them, but not all, is a very hateful attitude towards anyone who does not believe in OSAS. This agape love is not seen in their posts towards anyone who does not believe as they do. Deep intolerance and somewhat of a vengeful heart is what is seen. I also had seen no good fruit coming out of that theology. I have seen them freely sin against others in full assurance that nothing eternal is affected. I am not hurt just surprised at the vindictiveness of these believers over their theology. That some claim that agape love is poured out into their hearts is betrayed by seeming to hate those who disagree with them.

What I see OSAS does is pick out scriptures from different places in the bible and build a case for their position from statments isolated from one another in actual presentation. No one in the Bible gave a cohesive presentation of the theology in one flowing thought. It is like this, the Bible says salvation is a gift. It also says the gift of GOd are not withdrawn. Therefore salvation cannot be withdrawn. Now those statments are not put together by any writer of the Bible. It is done so by human desire and logic for this to be true.

VCO, there are OSAS believers in our church and I have no problem with them except their intolerance of any other view that slips out at times. OTherwise we fellowship and talk and laugh and sing together, no problem. Their intolerance I tolerate. We do not have to agree to have warm fellowship as far as my side is concerned. The Vindictive or unloving brethren (despite your claim that they are filled with agape love at salvation) I forgive as they need forgiveness.

VCO, dare I say that I do not expect you to understand my position? Is it fair if I respond to you as you respond to me? I truthfully do not think you will understand but think that I am into works salvation. I have not met an OSAS believer who did not think those who reject OSAS think works save us. That there is another option has not seem to occured to anyone I have met so far. Even when I explain my position I am accused of working my own salvation.

But thanks for the kind answers. I do value that greatly.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I do not reek of dishonesty and never did that I recall.

We are being accused of it by some my dear sister, that is why I said “reek of dishonesty”.

 

[DorothyMae]

We are being accused of it by some my dear sister, that is why I said “reek of dishonesty”.

Ah, sorry, I get it.

 

[jackrosie]

DorothyMae...I appreciate your posts...they are full of insight...they are helping me to look at things differently....you have a lot of knowledge.....you think deeply ...plus study...that is something I am learning to do....studying scriptures....I think we need a balance of both the heart and bible knowledge.

 

[Pulie]

I see you’re a snarky little nit. Your original question regarded being a murderer but now you’ve conveniently upped the ante to serial murderer. That’s nothing more than you trying to prove a point without simply stating your point.

Tell me snarky one, why would you, an alleged Christian, desire to be an unrepentant serial killer? What kind of barbaric ideas lie within your head? You should do in Scripture teaches us, and that is to keep your eyes focused on the Lord.

Thanks for making me aware, blessings!

 

[Pulie]

Your problem, which is one of many, is that you try to pigeonhole Christians into one book of the Bible, in the above post that would be revelation. You lack confidence in God’s grace.

Alright .

 

[VCO]

Dear VCO, I work in science and test theories as a part of that training. So let us test this theology. Do the people in your church find that when the become Christiains, interpersonal relationships are so vastly different such that indications of godly love are seen in no divorce, no hard or hurtful words wihtout godly love quickly resulting in reconciliation. Christian teenagers are lovingly obedient to their parents and so on. If this is not the case, then what happened to the godly love that come in unbidden that is so powerfully inspiring christians to behave that way?

If you tell me it is a process then I ask upon what does it depend? If God is pouring this love so that you automatically have it, how can that be a process since it depends solely upon being saved and nothing else? I know you call this sanctification but you have two positions that don't fit.

On one hand this love is poured out without any effort on the part of the recepient. Since the recepient is much weaker than the giver, and since this love is a powerful motivation, it doesn't make sense that human weakness is more powerful than this love. Why should it be a process? Salvation is not a process.
OSAS is an AMerican invention so I don't know any Germans who believe this except the Calvinists. But of course they believe salvation is a done deal before anyone was born.

So you know those who are not saved by them later leaving? The standard of agape love is not a measure, right?

VCO, I understand perfectly the OSAS position. I have talked with numerous OSAS believers. Lots and lots of them. And one thing that has marked many of them, but not all, is a very hateful attitude towards anyone who does not believe in OSAS. This agape love is not seen in their posts towards anyone who does not believe as they do. Deep intolerance and somewhat of a vengeful heart is what is seen. I also had seen no good fruit coming out of that theology. I have seen them freely sin against others in full assurance that nothing eternal is affected. I am not hurt just surprised at the vindictiveness of these believers over their theology. That some claim that agape love is poured out into their hearts is betrayed by seeming to hate those who disagree with them.

What I see OSAS does is pick out scriptures from different places in the bible and build a case for their position from statments isolated from one another in actual presentation. No one in the Bible gave a cohesive presentation of the theology in one flowing thought. It is like this, the Bible says salvation is a gift. It also says the gift of GOd are not withdrawn. Therefore salvation cannot be withdrawn. Now those statments are not put together by any writer of the Bible. It is done so by human desire and logic for this to be true.

VCO, there are OSAS believers in our church and I have no problem with them except their intolerance of any other view that slips out at times. OTherwise we fellowship and talk and laugh and sing together, no problem. Their intolerance I tolerate. We do not have to agree to have warm fellowship as far as my side is concerned. The Vindictive or unloving brethren (despite your claim that they are filled with agape love at salvation) I forgive as they need forgiveness.

VCO, dare I say that I do not expect you to understand my position? Is it fair if I respond to you as you respond to me? I truthfully do not think you will understand but think that I am into works salvation. I have not met an OSAS believer who did not think those who reject OSAS think works save us. That there is another option has not seem to occured to anyone I have met so far. Even when I explain my position I am accused of working my own salvation.

But thanks for the kind answers. I do value that greatly.

And every negative thing you say about OSAS over there, is too STRANGE compared to our Doctrines, it is like night and day.

Believe what you want, and I will believe what the HOLY SPIRIT puts on my heart to BELIEVE,

 

[Pulie]

You will find it difficult to get an intelligent answer regarding blantant sin in the lives of believers that one can acccept without some turning off the mind.

If a christian decides to murder, the possible answers for OSAS are:

was never saved judging by deeds done later in life
remains saved the same no matter what evil they do

That’s it. The concept of shipwrecking your faith, falling away from the faith, putting the hand to the plough but turning back or deciding on a course but realizing you changed your mind as the price is too high is not an option for them.

I also didn't get an adequate answer for that question. To a certain extent, the concept of salvation is beyond human intelligence.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Alright .

Dear Pulie, on this thread there are many people without manners that think they can talk to you the way they will talk to their parents, partners and kids. You have asked a valid question. I hope somebody will take time to get to know you first before calling you names next time.

 

[jackrosie]

I do find that once born again..if they go out and murder...would still be saved....I’d be trembling on judgement day before the Lord if I did that.

To be honest i tremble at even thinking about it!..

Haven’t we as born again got more to answer to God...when we meet him?...just askin...be gentle.

 

[Pulie]

Dear Pulie, on this thread there are many people without manners that think they can talk to you the way they will talk to their parents, partners and kids. You have asked a valid question. I hope somebody will take time to get to know you first before calling you names next time.

That is so heartwarming, thanks for your kind words.