Not By Works

[Mindwrencher]

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There are a LOT of people here in “Christian Chat” that don’t even know exactly what their church believes and teaches. Practically everyone has been taught “Calvinism” their entire lives and don’t even know it. They insist “faith only and only faith alone” is what saves a man. And they cannot comprehend that faith IS NOT “WHAT” saves man. God’s grace is “what” actually saves and “credits” our faith as “righteousness”. In other words: Faith itself, like all works, does not “MERIT” or “EARN” or “DESERVE” salvation. And getting Calvinist oriented believers to understand that is impossible. We must build each other up in the word of Christ, and not weaken each other. God bless you, my “sibling”, lol, in your quest here in the chat.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Faith is not a work is it. And God has placed a condition on salvation correct? That condition is faith in Christ Jesus, correct?
We see the conditional salvation from the beginning with Abraham.
Gen 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Abraham's faith was not a work but it was something that he had to do. God did not do it for him did He.
In the NT we see this same righteousness can be ours through faith.

Rom 3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Now lest you think that I am talking about some form of works/merit for salvation let us look at
Gal 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Paul tells us in plain language that those that trust in Christ Jesus will be saved
Rom 10:13
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

But you may ask why would they call on the Lord but Paul anticipated that question and provided the answer
Rom 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

So we see that the order of salvation is clearly shown in scripture.
Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation

Faith is not a work it is not merit it does not even save us but it is the condition of our salvation. We are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith in Christ Jesus. Salvation is God gift to us and we praise Him for it.
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Just so we can be perfectly clear: “Faith is not a work” is your personal statement, right? Because there is not a scripture in the entire bible that explicitly says that, right? But you do agree that there is nothing meritorious about faith, right?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually I did not say there is "more to it than just believing and accepting." What I actually said was this: (post 152093)

"I am not satisfied at all with that "all we have to do is believe and accept": I want to live my belief out in real life in my actions and behavior every day. Out of gratefulness and the inspiration of God's love for me I want to be on the front line forces for the advancement of His Kingdom! "

I am not satisfied at all with that "all we have to do is believe and accept":

When you say your not satisfied that it is ALL we have to do. You are hinting that you think we need to do more
Own up to what you said my friend.

 

[Chester]

When you say your not satisfied that it is ALL we have to do. You are hinting that you think we need to do more
Own up to what you said my friend.

I don't approach Christian living or salvation from a "need to" angle: I want to and love to serve my Redeemer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't approach Christian living or salvation from a "need to" angle: I want to and love to serve my Redeemer.

Then your post made no sense.

 

[Justified]

There are a LOT of people here in “Christian Chat” that don’t even know exactly what their church believes and teaches. Practically everyone has been taught “Calvinism” their entire lives and don’t even know it. They insist “faith only and only faith alone” is what saves a man. And they cannot comprehend that faith IS NOT “WHAT” saves man. God’s grace is “what” actually saves and “credits” our faith as “righteousness”. In other words: Faith itself, like all works, does not “MERIT” or “EARN” or “DESERVE” salvation. And getting Calvinist oriented believers to understand that is impossible. We must build each other up in the word of Christ, and not weaken each other. God bless you, my “sibling”, lol, in your quest here in the chat.

You do not seem to understand that the condition of salvation is faith in Christ Jesus. We are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith. Faith is not a work as you suggest and as the bible states.
Gal_2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,

>> They insist “faith only and only faith alone” is what saves a man.<<
Can you tell me what else a man has to have before he is saved? The bible is quite clear in that. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,.

Actually Calvinists do not think faith saves them they think they are saved so they can have faith. They are regenerated/born again/saved then they are given faith by God so they can believe. They have salvation all mixed up.

 

[Justified]

When you say your not satisfied that it is ALL we have to do. You are hinting that you think we need to do more
Own up to what you said my friend.

You do not seem to understand what Chester is saying here. What I see in his comment is that he does not want to just be a sit back and do nothing Christian, he wants to be engaged. This is just as we all should be.
I think you are looking for hidden meaning in his words and there is none.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope

I just looked at what he said

There is more than believing and receiving

when you say this in a salvation is not by works thread.

Well you get the idea.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

"I am not satisfied at all with that "all we have to do is believe and accept"

Better is:

Salvation is 100 Percent Free, But Eternal Rewards
{incorruptible crown/reigning With HIM!} are 100 percent Earned!

Amen? Hallelujah! Praise The LORD!!

 

[infinitekhanol]

Perfect means complete. As in, we find our wholeness in God alone.

Holy = set apart, for we are called out of this world.

Yes, we find our wholeness in God. We are complete in him ---- only if we are walking in the light, in the Spirit. If one says he is a child of God or born again, and he is walking in darkness or sin, how can he be complete in him? Light and darkness do not co -exist. They are parallel.

We must walk in the light to be complete in him. Walking in the light is not mere talk. We must walk the walk not just talk the talk.

 

[Mindwrencher]

You do not seem to understand that the condition of salvation is faith in Christ Jesus. We are saved by Gods' grace because of our faith. Faith is not a work as you suggest and as the bible states.
Gal_2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,

>> They insist “faith only and only faith alone” is what saves a man.<<
Can you tell me what else a man has to have before he is saved? The bible is quite clear in that. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,.

Actually Calvinists do not think faith saves them they think they are saved so they can have faith. They are regenerated/born again/saved then they are given faith by God so they can believe. They have salvation all mixed up.

Gal 2:16 defines exactly what Paul refers to in Eph 2: “[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” The “works” referred to in Eph 2, by which no man is justified, are “works of the law” as expressed in Gal 2:16, which you quoted.
As for what other necessary thing a man must “do”, here is one:…Rom 10: “8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
A man MUST confess with his “voice”, whether through his mute consciousness or sign language or in his regular voice. You deny that…and you blaspheme, speak against, plain scripture.
I cannot express to you enough that as a person of God, you must accept His word above the doctrines of men. “Faith alone” is a doctrine of men. God’s pure and simple word is quite different, and hard choices must be made when one realizes that there are things a person must actually “do” to be saved.
Despite whatever a man must “do”, that thing “done” will never “merit”, “earn” or “deserve” salvation…not even faith itself merits any “favor” with God. He has promised to “credit”, or “invest” salvation in us solely as a act of grace, and not a “payment” for “services rendered”.
“Works” in the NT writ is specifically “works of the law”.
Scripture must define scripture: Compare Lev 18:7-16 w/ Gen 9:22-23.
God bless you in every good gift, my friend, I love you and so does our heavenly Father.

 

[Justified]

Nope

I just looked at what he said

There is more than believing and receiving

when you say this in a salvation is not by works thread.

Well you get the idea.

Here is the post from Chester: (post 152093)

>>Why "have to do"? To me it is not a have to, but a "get to".

I am not satisfied at all with that "all we have to do is believe and accept": I want to live my belief out in real life in my actions and behavior every day. Out of gratefulness and the inspiration of God's love for me I want to be on the front line forces for the advancement of His Kingdom! <<

Please note there is a colon between accept & I want. You can use a colon {:} to introduce an explanation or a definition of something. That is what Chester did.

All that Chester has said in that post is that he gets to do something because he is saved. Nowhere does it suggest that we have to do these things to be saved.

Look at it this way, if someone just said,

>>I want to live my belief out in real life in my actions and behavior every day. Out of gratefulness and the inspiration of God's love for me I want to be on the front line forces for the advancement of His Kingdom!<<

Would you have a problem with that, would you say that is "works" salvation? I do not want to dwell on this but I think many problems we have on these boards is a matter of talking past one another. What Chester wrote is exactly what all Christians should be thinking and doing. We have to many couch potato Christians. We are in a war and we need people willing to step into the breach.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is the post from Chester: (post 152093)

>>Why "have to do"? To me it is not a have to, but a "get to".

I am not satisfied at all with that " we have to do is believe and accept"[]

When your in a bit by works thread speaking about how one is saved and you make a post like this

Your gonna get in trouble

This is not a sanctification thread it’s a how we are saved thread

I also know the user and what he believes So please stop

 

[Justified]

Gal 2:16 defines exactly what Paul refers to in Eph 2: “[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” The “works” referred to in Eph 2, by which no man is justified, are “works of the law” as expressed in Gal 2:16, which you quoted.
As for what other necessary thing a man must “do”, here is one:…Rom 10: “8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
A man MUST confess with his “voice”, whether through his mute consciousness or sign language or in his regular voice. You deny that…and you blaspheme, speak against, plain scripture.
I cannot express to you enough that as a person of God, you must accept His word above the doctrines of men. “Faith alone” is a doctrine of men. God’s pure and simple word is quite different, and hard choices must be made when one realizes that there are things a person must actually “do” to be saved.
Despite whatever a man must “do”, that thing “done” will never “merit”, “earn” or “deserve” salvation…not even faith itself merits any “favor” with God. He has promised to “credit”, or “invest” salvation in us solely as a act of grace, and not a “payment” for “services rendered”.
“Works” in the NT writ is specifically “works of the law”.
Scripture must define scripture: Compare Lev 18:7-16 w/ Gen 9:22-23.
God bless you in every good gift, my friend, I love you and so does our heavenly Father.

I think you are swallowing camels and straining gnats. On one hand you say >>A man MUST confess with his “voice”, whether through his mute consciousness or sign language or in his regular voice. << Then you say that "Faith Alone" is a doctrine of man. Really, if the bible tells me that I am saved by God because of my faith in Christ Jesus then that is all that is required. As you said >>whether through his mute consciousness or sign language<<.

The quote you gave from Rom 10:10 is quite clear "...with the heart one believes unto righteousness..." with the heart one believes, is that not faith? Because of our faith God grants us righteousness {we are saved/justified} in the sight of God. We see this also in Rom 3:22 "even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ..." and this is made clear in Rom 3:24-25 "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith..."

I fully agree that we as Christians must be willing to confess Christ Jesus as Lord but our confession is because we are saved not so that we will be saved.

Here is an example: I am a Canadian, born and raised. So if asked I would say that I am Canadian. My saying that I am a Canadian does not make me a Canadian. That is the same with our confession of faith in Christ Jesus. If I am asked if I am a Christian I would say yes, because I trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation. My confession does not save me it is my faith in Christ Jesus that saved me.

 

[Mindwrencher]

I think you are swallowing camels and straining gnats. On one hand you say >>A man MUST confess with his “voice”, whether through his mute consciousness or sign language or in his regular voice. << Then you say that "Faith Alone" is a doctrine of man. Really, if the bible tells me that I am saved by God because of my faith in Christ Jesus then that is all that is required. As you said >>whether through his mute consciousness or sign language<<.

The quote you gave from Rom 10:10 is quite clear "...with the heart one believes unto righteousness..." with the heart one believes, is that not faith? Because of our faith God grants us righteousness {we are saved/justified} in the sight of God. We see this also in Rom 3:22 "even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ..." and this is made clear in Rom 3:24-25 "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith..."

I fully agree that we as Christians must be willing to confess Christ Jesus as Lord but our confession is because we are saved not so that we will be saved.

Here is an example: I am a Canadian, born and raised. So if asked I would say that I am Canadian. My saying that I am a Canadian does not make me a Canadian. That is the same with our confession of faith in Christ Jesus. If I am asked if I am a Christian I would say yes, because I trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation. My confession does not save me it is my faith in Christ Jesus that saved me.

Rom 10:…”and with the mouth confession is made UNTO, or resulting in, SALVATION.” Righteousnes IS NOT salvation. You know this from this exact passage.

 

[Justified]

When your in a bit by works thread speaking about how one is saved and you make a post like this

Your gonna get in trouble

This is not a sanctification thread it’s a how we are saved thread

I also know the user and what he believes So please stop

Rom 10:…”and with the mouth confession is made UNTO, or resulting in, SALVATION.” Righteousnes IS NOT salvation. You know this from this exact passage.

So you are adding the work of confession, as you see it, to salvation. Just to be clear, are you saying that faith in Christ Jesus is not sufficient to be saved.

 

[Justified]

When your in a bit by works thread speaking about how one is saved and you make a post like this

Your gonna get in trouble

This is not a sanctification thread it’s a how we are saved thread

I also know the user and what he believes So please stop

If as you say you know the believer then why would you question what he says. You have accused him of putting forward works salvation when it is clear from what he wrote that that is not what he said. You are reading into his text what you want to find.

Do you find it hard to admit that you misread the post?

 

[Mindwrencher]

I think you are swallowing camels and straining gnats. On one hand you say >>A man MUST confess with his “voice”, whether through his mute consciousness or sign language or in his regular voice. << Then you say that "Faith Alone" is a doctrine of man. Really, if the bible tells me that I am saved by God because of my faith in Christ Jesus then that is all that is required. As you said >>whether through his mute consciousness or sign language<<.

The quote you gave from Rom 10:10 is quite clear "...with the heart one believes unto righteousness..." with the heart one believes, is that not faith? Because of our faith God grants us righteousness {we are saved/justified} in the sight of God. We see this also in Rom 3:22 "even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ..." and this is made clear in Rom 3:24-25 "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith..."

I fully agree that we as Christians must be willing to confess Christ Jesus as Lord but our confession is because we are saved not so that we will be saved.

Here is an example: I am a Canadian, born and raised. So if asked I would say that I am Canadian. My saying that I am a Canadian does not make me a Canadian. That is the same with our confession of faith in Christ Jesus. If I am asked if I am a Christian I would say yes, because I trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation. My confession does not save me it is my faith in Christ Jesus that saved me.

Rom 10:…”and with the mouth confession is made UNTO, or resulting in, SALVATION.” Righteousnes IS NOT salvation. You know this from this exact passage. Confession IS NOT a result of salvation. Confession is a prerequisite to salvation. This very passage confirms it beyond all doubt. You insisting otherwise does not change it all around to suit what you choose to believe. You do not get to prescribe salvation and what is written. God does that.
And Paul constantly juxtaposes faith against Mosaical Law, insisting that the Law of Moses has been replaced by the New Covenant. Being born a Jew IS NOT the New Covenant, but rather Jesus and His atonement, not animals and other sacrifices.
The idea that faith is simply believing in Jesus and accepting salvation IN YOUR MIND is completely a manmade doctrine.
Faith and confession go hand in hand just like righteousness and salvation EXACTLY as Rom 10 explains it. If you choose to jumble it up and reconstruct it then you are resisting the Holy Spirit.
You are opposed to the plain text in Rom 10 for reasons of your own, and not because of other passages of scripture.
And in regards to confession being necessary for salvation you are dead wrong.
And in regards to faith NOT being a work, you are also wrong. Tell your preacher that using his BRAIN, MIND, IMAGINATION is not work. Tell a writer, an artist, a teacher or a student that using your mind IS NOT work.
Memorization is not work? Recall and remembrance is not work? Choosing to accept or reject the Gospel is not work?
It is this very stubborn rejection of scripture which has people totally misunderstanding John 5:29: “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”The text plainly says “Jesus ANSWERED them…”. Meaning He told them exactly what “Work” THEY were to do…BELIEVE.
Yet resistant people insist that Jesus was saying “Belief” or “Faith” is a work only God can do, making Jesus sound like He totally ignored their question.
But “Jesus answered” their question. BELIEF is the “work” they could do to do the work God would have them do.
Otherwise, if Jesus was saying that only God can perform the “work” of making a man have faith, then that is Calvinist to the bone…with Martin Luther’s insertion of “alone”. (Ref “Sola fide” in wiki).
“Luther added the word allein ("alone" in German) to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith".
THAT is the root and foundation of your “Faith alone” doctrine. And not holy scripture.
Again, I would never weaken you in our Lord and His word…only strive to make you stronger.
May God bless you with every good blessing.

 

[Mindwrencher]

So you are adding the work of confession, as you see it, to salvation. Just to be clear, are you saying that faith in Christ Jesus is not sufficient to be saved.

Now I’ll ask you…Where in Holy Scripture is it ever emphatically, explicitly stated “Faith alone” is completely sufficient unto salvation?
You’ll never find it.
You will be compelled to try to defend that concept, doctrine, but Scripture NEVER asserts that.
Be strong in the Lord of Hosts, and in His Mighty Word.

 

[rayzor]

Rom 10:…”and with the mouth confession is made UNTO, or resulting in, SALVATION.” Righteousnes IS NOT salvation. You know this from this exact passage. Confession IS NOT a result of salvation. Confession is a prerequisite to salvation. This very passage confirms it beyond all doubt. You insisting otherwise does not change it all around to suit what you choose to believe. You do not get to prescribe salvation and what is written. God does that.
And Paul constantly juxtaposes faith against Mosaical Law, insisting that the Law of Moses has been replaced by the New Covenant. Being born a Jew IS NOT the New Covenant, but rather Jesus and His atonement, not animals and other sacrifices.
The idea that faith is simply believing in Jesus and accepting salvation IN YOUR MIND is completely a manmade doctrine.
Faith and confession go hand in hand just like righteousness and salvation EXACTLY as Rom 10 explains it. If you choose to jumble it up and reconstruct it then you are resisting the Holy Spirit.
You are opposed to the plain text in Rom 10 for reasons of your own, and not because of other passages of scripture.
And in regards to confession being necessary for salvation you are dead wrong.
And in regards to faith NOT being a work, you are also wrong. Tell your preacher that using his BRAIN, MIND, IMAGINATION is not work. Tell a writer, an artist, a teacher or a student that using your mind IS NOT work.
Memorization is not work? Recall and remembrance is not work? Choosing to accept or reject the Gospel is not work?
It is this very stubborn rejection of scripture which has people totally misunderstanding John 5:29: “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”The text plainly says “Jesus ANSWERED them…”. Meaning He told them exactly what “Work” THEY were to do…BELIEVE.
Yet resistant people insist that Jesus was saying “Belief” or “Faith” is a work only God can do, making Jesus sound like He totally ignored their question.
But “Jesus answered” their question. BELIEF is the “work” they could do to do the work God would have them do.
Otherwise, if Jesus was saying that only God can perform the “work” of making a man have faith, then that is Calvinist to the bone…with Martin Luther’s insertion of “alone”. (Ref “Sola fide” in wiki).
“Luther added the word allein ("alone" in German) to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith".
THAT is the root and foundation of your “Faith alone” doctrine. And not holy scripture.
Again, I would never weaken you in our Lord and His word…only strive to make you stronger.
May God bless you with every good blessing.

Rather it was said by Paul or not there's not really new covenant.Things are said in the old testament like the just shall live by faith and of course he desires mercy and not sacrifice.Even to be nice to your enemy