Not wise to take all scriptures literally - better to prayerfully compare them to decide more accurately what the Bible teaches on things

[Blain]

David prayed in Psalms 119:18 "Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your Torah". Scripture can be read as history only, and it can be read as only spiritual. But the truth of scripture is many things at once. There is even hidden wisdom in each verse. These are revealed through the Holy spirit.

Christians often find that sometimes, after countless readings of a selection of scripture, new understanding comes to them of that passage.

Yes exactly the bible is like an onion or the earths crust it has many layers and it is also like a spiderweb in the sense that each verse somehow in one way or form connects to another throughout the whole bible his word is so amazing in that way it is like he wove it together so perfectly that even if we read it a thousand times we still find hidden treasures in it.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

The guy you are addressing is "pauline only"
He does not see the entire nt.
He only sees the Pauline books.
He teaches there are 2 gospels. And JESUS'S Gospel is not Paul's gospel.

Oh I see. Yes, and it's common for some Christians to favor scriptures that they find most understandable, and to largely ignore the scriptures that support (because of the greater emphasis of those opposing scriptures - in some passages of the Bible) the opposing views on subjects. I've heard that before - that this kind of thing is common among Christians. But all of God's Word is true - ones just need to prayerfully compare scriptures on subjects to be more likely to have a more correct understanding on them. This all takes time to improve one's understanding of things, since for example, it takes a life time to learn all that one will learn of spiritual truths.

 

[throughfaith]

The guy you are addressing is "pauline only"
He does not see the entire nt.
He only sees the Pauline books.
He teaches there are 2 gospels. And JESUS'S Gospel is not Paul's gospel.

Thats a silly thing to say . Following I can see hes rightly dividing .People that say this usually misunderstand the point about what Jesus says . Those preaching ' the Gospel ' before the cross dont understand the cross ? So they are not preaching the Gospel , before the Gospel even happens are they .
31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

How do you reconcile what they were preaching when clearly they were not preaching 1 cor 15 ,1-4. ?

 

[lenna]

Thats a silly thing to say . Following I can see hes rightly dividing

that would be because you believe like he does

duh

 

[Chester]

Of course, we are not to willfully reject any of the scriptures, as God meant them all to be for us to learn from and they are all true. But prayerfully "rightly dividing" (II Timothy 2:15) the scriptures, helps increase likelihood that we interpret the scriptures correctly. . II Timothy 3:16.
Here are some examples:
Rom 16:16
16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
KJV
1 Cor 11:5
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
KJV
Comment: The ones above, have to do with ancient customs that were proper to adhere to back then - but improper or not required in modern times, due to changes in customs. Though the head covering for women still stands, except it is no longer to wear a visible head covering to show her respect for the headship of her husband. Instead, it is to be in her heart.
Matt 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
KJV
Taken literally, this means to be completely sinless - which none of us are able to be. Though yes, we can be counted as perfectly sinless through the forgiveness that comes through Jesus' blood on Calvary.
Rom 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
KJV
James 5:16
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
KJV
Comment: The last 2 verses might appear contradictory to each other, due to their wording. But one needs to compare the scriptures in this to avoid being overly literal and to arrive at the correct meaning that these verses implies on the subject of righteousness.
Ex 20:8
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
KJV
Comment: If Christians thought that both the Old Testament laws and the New Testament laws both need to be obeyed - they'd find themselves failing to live according to the New Covenant, rather than the old one. The scriptures say that the old one is done away.

Interesting topic, but a much abused one as well!

While I agree that not every Scripture should be taken literally, I strongly believe that is the starting point. I take every Scripture literally unless there is a clear indication the author who wrote it did not mean for it to be taken literally. When there is a clear New Testament command given I do not let modern culture dictate my actions. I stick to Scripture.

holy kiss, woman's veiling = absolutely no reason not to practice these today -the holy kiss should be practiced appropriately in appropriate settings - probably not on the public street!

"be ye therefore perfect" - here you misinterpret the word "perfect" - the Greek word carries the idea of maturity, not of sinless perfection

Romans 3:10 in the context simply says that no person on their own will be able to attain righteousness
James 5 - this "righteous man" is righteous because he has been born again
There is no conflict at all between these verses

The Old Testament command to keep the sabbath - The New Testament is clear that the Old Testament law has been fulfilled

So though I agree that not all Scriptures can be taken literally, your examples are not good ones at all . . . (my opinion!)

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Interesting topic, but a much abused one as well!

While I agree that not every Scripture should be taken literally, I strongly believe that is the starting point. I take every Scripture literally unless there is a clear indication the author who wrote it did not mean for it to be taken literally. When there is a clear New Testament command given I do not let modern culture dictate my actions. I stick to Scripture.

holy kiss, woman's veiling = absolutely no reason not to practice these today -the holy kiss should be practiced appropriately in appropriate settings - probably not on the public street!

"be ye therefore perfect" - here you misinterpret the word "perfect" - the Greek word carries the idea of maturity, not of sinless perfection

Romans 3:10 in the context simply says that no person on their own will be able to attain righteousness
James 5 - this "righteous man" is righteous because he has been born again
There is no conflict at all between these verses

The Old Testament command to keep the sabbath - The New Testament is clear that the Old Testament law has been fulfilled

So though I agree that not all Scriptures can be taken literally, your examples are not good ones at all . . . (my opinion!)

Well, I had to post examples that could be used to show that it isn't possible to understand all Bible parts correctly - just by going by what it looks like it means - and failing to compare it with other scriptures on the subject. I'm sure lots of misconceptions of the scriptures happen this way among Christians. I study the meaning of words in question often too so agree this is often very helpful. But I also know that the Bible uses many symbolisms, too, and can well see how this can confuse many, at first. I agree that if one reads and studies the Bible with an attitude that gravitates more to what one likes than according to a sincere desire to correctly understand what God means in the scriptures - they are bound for trouble! Having a right attitude towards God, when reading and studying the Bible - helps a great deal! And unbelievers aren't able to understand the way of salvation either, without first seeking Him sincerely - God only makes that possible for those who sincerely seek Him.

 

[Absolutely]

Thats a silly thing to say . Following I can see hes rightly dividing .People that say this usually misunderstand the point about what Jesus says . Those preaching ' the Gospel ' before the cross dont understand the cross ? So they are not preaching the Gospel , before the Gospel even happens are they .
31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

How do you reconcile what they were preaching when clearly they were not preaching 1 cor 15 ,1-4. ?

Not what I am saying.

The paulines,for some reason have a need to reframe the gospels and the non Pauline books.

Of course the disciples misunderstood Jesus and his mission. That has nothing to do with anything.

My revealing of the error of the Pauline only doctrine is rock solid.

Take one of my points and use scripture to correct me.

 

[throughfaith]

Not what I am saying.

The paulines,for some reason have a need to reframe the gospels and the non Pauline books.

Of course the disciples misunderstood Jesus and his mission. That has nothing to do with anything.

My revealing of the error of the Pauline only doctrine is rock solid.

Take one of my points and use scripture to correct me.

Which point are you making ? could you give an example ?

 

[throughfaith]

Not what I am saying.

The paulines,for some reason have a need to reframe the gospels and the non Pauline books.

Of course the disciples misunderstood Jesus and his mission. That has nothing to do with anything.

My revealing of the error of the Pauline only doctrine is rock solid.

Take one of my points and use scripture to correct me.

Surely the disciples preaching a message that comes before the gospel shows there is a message before the Gospel thats not the message we are saved by .

 

[Guojing]

Thats a silly thing to say . Following I can see hes rightly dividing .People that say this usually misunderstand the point about what Jesus says . Those preaching ' the Gospel ' before the cross dont understand the cross ? So they are not preaching the Gospel , before the Gospel even happens are they .
31¶Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34¶And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

How do you reconcile what they were preaching when clearly they were not preaching 1 cor 15 ,1-4. ?

To many Christians, the only rightly dividing they do is to divide the ot from the nt.

The moment they turn that blank page that says New Testament and hit Matthew, they regard every word there and after as directed to them

 

[Blik]

It seems to me that if we put on the mind of God through the Holy Spirit, we are not to exclude scripture to literal or spiritual understanding except in parables, we are to see both in each scripture.

 

[Chester]

To many Christians, the only rightly dividing they do is to divide the ot from the nt.

The moment they turn that blank page that says New Testament and hit Matthew, they regard every word there and after as directed to them

Now there you got it! Every NT word is directed to me - yes, indeed - "all Scripture is profitable . . ." - even when Paul told Timothy to "bring my coat and scrolls" (II Tim. 4:13) - even from that it is in the Bible for a purpose and with an application for me.

For that matter all OT Scripture is also directed to me - . . . Of course I need to know how to interpret and apply it . . .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course, we are not to willfully reject any of the scriptures, as God meant them all to be for us to learn from and they are all true. But prayerfully "rightly dividing" (II Timothy 2:15) the scriptures, helps increase likelihood that we interpret the scriptures correctly. . II Timothy 3:16.
Here are some examples:
Rom 16:16
16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
KJV
1 Cor 11:5
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
KJV
Comment: The ones above, have to do with ancient customs that were proper to adhere to back then - but improper or not required in modern times, due to changes in customs. Though the head covering for women still stands, except it is no longer to wear a visible head covering to show her respect for the headship of her husband. Instead, it is to be in her heart.
Matt 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
KJV
Taken literally, this means to be completely sinless - which none of us are able to be. Though yes, we can be counted as perfectly sinless through the forgiveness that comes through Jesus' blood on Calvary.
Rom 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
KJV
James 5:16
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
KJV
Comment: The last 2 verses might appear contradictory to each other, due to their wording. But one needs to compare the scriptures in this to avoid being overly literal and to arrive at the correct meaning that these verses implies on the subject of righteousness.
Ex 20:8
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
KJV
Comment: If Christians thought that both the Old Testament laws and the New Testament laws both need to be obeyed - they'd find themselves failing to live according to the New Covenant, rather than the old one. The scriptures say that the old one is done away.

to be perfect he’s not saying sinless you sort of pulled a single verse out of the subject he’s saying to be perfect in mercy towards others .

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

....Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44-45, 48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the contemporary view helps even more

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People focusing on sin are missing what Jesus has said . The truth is there was no
One , is no one who is righteous apart from Christ . All have sin so Jesus is saying because you’ve all fallen short , be merciful to others .

It’s in his instruction to pray

“And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your right the law of Moses Is fulfilled Jesus death For all men is the culmination of the law. We now have everything jesus taught to believe and follow after such as being perfect or complete in mercy towards others because again the gospel comes to save sinners who is all of us .

Having no grudges , no hate , not taking revenge repaying insult for insult , no
More eye for an eye , but rather turn the other cheek ....mercy rules the day

 

[MyrtleTrees]

to be perfect he’s not saying sinless you sort of pulled a single verse out of the subject he’s saying to be perfect in mercy towards others .

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

....Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44-45, 48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the contemporary view helps even more

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People focusing on sin are missing what Jesus has said . The truth is there was no
One , is no one who is righteous apart from Christ . All have sin so Jesus is saying because you’ve all fallen short , be merciful to others .

It’s in his instruction to pray

“And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your right the law of Moses Is fulfilled Jesus death For all men is the culmination of the law. We now have everything jesus taught to believe and follow after such as being perfect or complete in mercy towards others because again the gospel comes to save sinners who is all of us .

Having no grudges , no hate , not taking revenge repaying insult for insult , no
More eye for an eye , but rather turn the other cheek ....mercy rules the day

Sure - I knew the meaning of the verse that tells us to be perfect as Jesus was perfect. I just meant some readers might not know that - going by how it's worded. You gave a list of many good verses on the subject of what we need to be in the habit of doing, in order to keep our relationships with Christ going as well as possible - and to keep ourselves doing as well, spiritually - as is possible. Yes, studying subjects completely in that way - being broad in one's coverage of a subject, helps a great deal in arriving at the best conclusion of Bible truths on subjects is important "Pecking" here and there in the Bible, without doing a sufficiently complete coverage - is more likely to result in imperfect understanding of subjects in the Bible..

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Now there you got it! Every NT word is directed to me - yes, indeed - "all Scripture is profitable . . ." - even when Paul told Timothy to "bring my coat and scrolls" (II Tim. 4:13) - even from that it is in the Bible for a purpose and with an application for me.

For that matter all OT Scripture is also directed to me - . . . Of course I need to know how to interpret and apply it . . .

Yes, of course, we are to learn from both the Old Testament and the New Testament as they both have valuable - helpful lessons for us. But we are now under the New Covenant, and it's important to know that - at least in the matter of the importance of accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, and understanding His deity.

 

[infinitekhanol]

"Pilgrimshope, post:

to be perfect he’s not saying sinless you sort of pulled a single verse out of the subject he’s saying to be perfect in mercy towards others .

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

....Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44-45, 48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the contemporary view helps even more

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:

for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People focusing on sin are missing what Jesus has said . The truth is there was no
One , is no one who is righteous apart from Christ . All have sin so Jesus is saying because you’ve all fallen short , be merciful to others .

It’s in his instruction to pray

“And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your right the law of Moses Is fulfilled Jesus death For all men is the culmination of the law. We now have everything jesus taught to believe and follow after such as being perfect or complete in mercy towards others because again the gospel comes to save sinners who is all of us .

Having no grudges , no hate , not taking revenge repaying insult for insult , no
More eye for an eye , but rather turn the other cheek ....mercy rules the day[/QUOTE]



I think that wherever we are enjoined in the scripture to be holy and perfect as our Father which is in heaven, we are enjoined to be sinless for there is no sin in our Father which is in heaven.. Holiness and sinfulness do not coexist. There is no sin in the character and nature of God.

To be merciful as our Father, to forgive or as you put it "Having no grudges , no hate , not taking revenge repaying insult for insult , no More eye for an eye , but rather turn the other cheek ....mercy rules the day" means being sinless in this particular area, for being unmerciful or unforgiven is not a character of God, and are counted as sin. In the same way, we are required to be in all aspects of our life while holding on to the guidance of the holy Spirit

It means to be Christ like, to reach the measure of the standard of Christ Jesus. There is no sin in Christ Jesus. He died carrying our own sins, therefore we do not have any longer the encumbrances of the sin nature that keeps us bound to sin. Why then do we continue to sin is the question we need tp ask ourselves.

It means reflecting the fullness of God on earth just as our Lord Jesus taught and showed us. It means reaching that state of spirituality where there is neither male nor female, neither bond nor free, neither Jew nor Greek, neither American nor African, neither European nor Asian but we are all one in Christ Jesus. And the only way we can achieve this perfection as the bible tells us is through love. Love of God and all his creatures.

When Paul quoted the scripture that says, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, he was actually referring to the law of Moses. Under the law, no one can be perfect. no one was found holy. He explicitly explained his reasons in his justification of faith. In this new dispensation, we can be sinless and perfect as our Father in heaven if we hold on to the cross and the understanding our Lord Jesus gave us in his words. Is it not because no one was found worthy under the law that God manifested himself in the flesh? What then is the essence of the Cross if we continue to sin as if we are still under the law. ? Even today, we Christians who profess not to be under the law are not better . Profession of faith is nothing if our faith does not yield godly results.

He says, if we continue with him, we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. There is liberty in Christ Jesus, but that liberty is not a license for us to sin Paul tells.

 

[Tararose]

Just a side note that you might find of interest. I did a study a few months ago, being challenged by those words ...” Be perfect”. I found Looking at the context of the references and the meaning in the original language, that being perfect is more akin to being whole and lacking nothing. To be complete and entirely satisfied with God. Just as God is able to give endlessly requiring nothing in return, to the just and the just etc. so to we should be the same. The context of the scripture is very much in line with that meaning too. Loving enemies and doing good to people who hate you and so on. God is perfect “complete in Himself” and needs no ulterior motivation to give nor does He suffer lack when He goes to those who cannot
Repay or do not Appreciate it. As for sinless perfection, - HE is our perfection . It brought both a great relief as well as being challenging to find this out. Hope it encourages someone x

 

[infinitekhanol]

"Tararose, posted
Just a side note that you might find of interest. I did a study a few months ago, being challenged by those words ...” Be perfect”. I found Looking at the context of the references and the meaning in the original language, that being perfect is more akin to being whole and lacking nothing. To be complete and entirely satisfied with God. Just as God is able to give endlessly requiring nothing in return, to the just and the just etc. so to we should be the same. The context of the scripture is very much in line with that meaning too. Loving enemies and doing good to people who hate you and so on. God is perfect “complete in Himself” and needs no ulterior motivation to give nor does He suffer lack when He goes to those who cannot
Repay or do not Appreciate it. As for sinless perfection, - HE is our perfection . It brought both a great relief as well as being
challenging to find this out. Hope it encourages someone x[/QUOTE]


Thanks. This is very helpful.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Scripture is not taken "literally" in every verse, the bible is full of metaphors.

Trees that clap their hands mountains that sing
Isaiah 55:12 You will indeed go out with joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

God has pinions and wings
Psalm 91:4 He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings you may seek refuge

Anyone with at least 2 brain cells can identify a metaphor and not take it literally.

The Song of Solomon probably has more metaphors than any other book of the bible!

 

[GraceAndTruth]

John......don't keep me in suspense!!
Inquiring minds want to know.