J
joefizz
Guest
looks like I'll be answering this question later,I'm off to church to the house of the lord,and I shall be glad to enter my heavenly father's house!
Now That We're Saved, What's The Law Got To Do With It?
- Thread starter Desertsrose
- Start date
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Desertrose, you need to get out of the habit of pulling the odd verse here and there out of the body of the text to which it belongs!
All those verses in Romans which quote are in the bigger context of Paul explaining the futility of pursuing the law for the sake of righteousness.
All those verses which you quoted simply state that the problem is not intrinsically the law itself.
Yes the law, in itself, is holy, righteous and good (Rom 7:12) - if it were flawed how could it be used as an instrument to judge righteousness?
But, who are the doers of the law that have been justified by the law (Rom 2:13)?
Bar Jesus Christ, no one in the history of humanity has been declared righteous by the law!
Paul EXPLICITLY affirms that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).
Paul also goes on to say this - in the very same sentence - "[FONT="]24 [/FONT][FONT="]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]25 [/FONT][FONT="]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]26 [/FONT][FONT="]to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.[/FONT][FONT="]" [/FONT][FONT="](Rom 3:24-26)
In the New Covenant justification is found by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and the blood that he shed as a propitiation for our sins - nothing else!
If you really believe this: "The Law of love, the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty is a law of Grace that obeys." and believe that it applies to the law of the Mosaic Covenant then you are not part of the New Covenant but you have placed yourself under the the Covenant of Moses.
The Covenant of Moses is a conditional covenant between God and the people of Israel that depended on complete obedience. History shows that Israel failed in this task abysmally!
The New Covenant is much different.
The burden of obedience to the law was on Jesus Christ, and that obedience was to be tested unto the point of death since He was to a sin offering, a ransom for many (Matt 20:28, Mark 10:45).
Human beings have a much different place in this covenant since we are not primary parties to this covenant.
Instead we are offered salvation unconditionally (Rom3:24) by grace through faith, not on our own merits but purely on those of Jesus Christ!
When Paul writes this: "[/FONT]21 [FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]But now the righteousness of God [/FONT][FONT="]apart from the law [/FONT][FONT="]is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,[/FONT][FONT="]" (Rom 3:21), he is saying much more than just salvation (righteousness) by grace through faith!
The biggest irony of course, and this has already be covered, is that righteousness cannot be attained by the law.
He is saying that the Mosaic Covenant, of which the law, and obedience to that law, is its completeness, has been replaced by a new covenant.
The Covenant of Moses is no longer binding on the New Covenant believer!
The law of Christ, the law of Love, the law of Liberty, the law of Grace is no longer an unending list of prohibitions, and condemnation for failure but a simple ethic summed up like this: "[/FONT][FONT="]29 [/FONT][FONT="]Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]30 [/FONT][FONT="]And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[e] This is the first commandment.[f] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]31 [/FONT][FONT="]And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no other commandment greater than these[/FONT][FONT="]" [/FONT][FONT="](Mark 12:29-31)[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT]
And certainly, Paul expands on this ethic by detailing the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:16-26) that spells out our ethic toward our fellow man or woman!
[FONT="]16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. (Gal 5:16-26)
Our ethic is not the ethic demanded by the Covenant of Moses!
Our ethic is informed by the Holy Spirit and is an ethic of action, based on our love for God, rather than a law code of prohibition and condemnation![/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
J
joefizz
Guest
now I shall answer this question alongside the holy spirit...
your first question was was...now that we are saved what does the law got to do with it?
well as many have said the old law neither saves you nor condemns you when you accept Jesus as saviour there by being under grace,but the commandments and statutes of the old law are good spiritually,for to know them and observe to do them is good,sure. I know someone will say"but if you break one commandment you break the whole law"
but God did not go through all the trouble of not only speaking writing and teaching the law for everyone to think,"I'm under grace so I don't have to follow the law" or worse yet"I can do what I want because with being undergrace I now am free to do as I will without fear of death or condemnation"
as many have said Jesus did not come to "do away with law" but rather to fulfill it,as in complete the whole law,so the law is still around it's just that because we are no longer punished with death that people think they can just forget about it,though true the 2 greatest commandments are...
1.love thy God with all thy strength,mind,body,and soul
2.love thy neighbor as yourself
and they are the best two to abide by but this does not mean that the old law of commandments and statutes is useless, to abide by even one would have you grow in spirit,like for example I no longer cuss/curse,which I am sure is a commandment or statute,so am I to be told"that is foolish what use is following the law?" Nay for is it not written Jesus saying"to keep my sayings is to love me" and seeing as that Jesus was God in the flesh every commandment or statute in the bible are Jesus's"sayings" so surely to do them is to grow and spirit and a testimony that you love Jesus/God,one must not forget that God does not worketh iniquity so he has never given anyone anything useless,not his word,his law,or the crucifixion of his only begotten son,nothing God has ever commanded or created has no purpose,God is a just God his words bear "Truth" not misleadings,every single statute or commandment of God that he hath spoken has a purpose,that Jesus died for our sins so the law does not condemn us unto to death is just an excuse to over look all the good,just,and meaningful commandments and statutes that God still expects to be aware of or better abide by what you can of his law,after all what does one have to fear,abiding by what the lord hath spoken for "all" to do in the past,would you have it that Jesus has done all so we shall do nothing with the very law he freed us from? God forbid,because God is the same God now,of past,and forever more so what he saw as right to do in the past is still right in his eyes to do now,for would God have us go against his commandments and statutes of old purposely?
Nay for God loves those who seek to do right for him,
for whom hath said that God gives us useless commands,if they are useless now then why are the written in his word,and why is it written?..."in the beginning was the word and the word was God",if we have no use of the commandments and statutes he as the living word passed down to us,because they still hold value in God's eyes as well as that they should hold value in our eyes as his children!
your first question was was...now that we are saved what does the law got to do with it?
well as many have said the old law neither saves you nor condemns you when you accept Jesus as saviour there by being under grace,but the commandments and statutes of the old law are good spiritually,for to know them and observe to do them is good,sure. I know someone will say"but if you break one commandment you break the whole law"
but God did not go through all the trouble of not only speaking writing and teaching the law for everyone to think,"I'm under grace so I don't have to follow the law" or worse yet"I can do what I want because with being undergrace I now am free to do as I will without fear of death or condemnation"
as many have said Jesus did not come to "do away with law" but rather to fulfill it,as in complete the whole law,so the law is still around it's just that because we are no longer punished with death that people think they can just forget about it,though true the 2 greatest commandments are...
1.love thy God with all thy strength,mind,body,and soul
2.love thy neighbor as yourself
and they are the best two to abide by but this does not mean that the old law of commandments and statutes is useless, to abide by even one would have you grow in spirit,like for example I no longer cuss/curse,which I am sure is a commandment or statute,so am I to be told"that is foolish what use is following the law?" Nay for is it not written Jesus saying"to keep my sayings is to love me" and seeing as that Jesus was God in the flesh every commandment or statute in the bible are Jesus's"sayings" so surely to do them is to grow and spirit and a testimony that you love Jesus/God,one must not forget that God does not worketh iniquity so he has never given anyone anything useless,not his word,his law,or the crucifixion of his only begotten son,nothing God has ever commanded or created has no purpose,God is a just God his words bear "Truth" not misleadings,every single statute or commandment of God that he hath spoken has a purpose,that Jesus died for our sins so the law does not condemn us unto to death is just an excuse to over look all the good,just,and meaningful commandments and statutes that God still expects to be aware of or better abide by what you can of his law,after all what does one have to fear,abiding by what the lord hath spoken for "all" to do in the past,would you have it that Jesus has done all so we shall do nothing with the very law he freed us from? God forbid,because God is the same God now,of past,and forever more so what he saw as right to do in the past is still right in his eyes to do now,for would God have us go against his commandments and statutes of old purposely?
Nay for God loves those who seek to do right for him,
for whom hath said that God gives us useless commands,if they are useless now then why are the written in his word,and why is it written?..."in the beginning was the word and the word was God",if we have no use of the commandments and statutes he as the living word passed down to us,because they still hold value in God's eyes as well as that they should hold value in our eyes as his children!
The 10 commandments are not written on our hearts and minds. That is the ministry of condemnation and death.
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
What is written on our hearts and minds is Gods Law; Love, peace, joy...
Not a yoke of bondage...
Galatians 3:12,26
12 [FONT="]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[/FONT]26 [FONT="]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
What is written on our hearts and minds is Gods Law; Love, peace, joy...
Not a yoke of bondage...
Galatians 3:12,26
12 [FONT="]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
[/FONT]26 [FONT="]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
What I think you might have missed is the law of love only ministers death to one who does not love.
Love shows us that we are not loving and thus not fit for the kingdom and that if we continue to be unloving we will die.
Love condemns those who do not love but witnesses to those who who have Gods love in them as Christ is in them.
I didn't miss anything. I especially DO NOT confuse the law of love with the ministry of death and condemnation.
2 Corinthians 3:6-9
[FONT="]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
The letter kills. The 10 commandments written on stone bring death and condemnation. Those who work at it are under the curse.
The spirit gives life. The spirit gives righteousness. This is the law of love. The only way to receive any of this is by faith in Christ. Your work and your understanding don't cut the mustard.
But you are welcome to entangle yourself again in the yoke of bondage, against Pauls direct admonition, just like the stubborn rebellious people before you. Placing yourself under the ministry of death and condemnation.
There is a much better Way whenever you are interested in hearing about...[/FONT]
Rubbish!
The reason the law condemns is that it demands perfect obedience - an unattainable perfect obedience.
New Covenant believers are no longer in a covenant where perfect obedience to the law is demanded.
Instead, by faith we believe in the one who did observe the law perfectly - and unto the obedience of death for our sake.
The law (Mosaic covenant no longer applies in any way, shape, or form to a New Covenant believer!
God never demanded perfect obedience to the law from anyone. God dose not make impossible demands of people who can't do them.
God is reasonable. Or do you think a loving and caring God condemned a whole nation by giving them impossible demands and then punishing them when they fail even though that was the only option because they could not succeed?
The law was not given to help us overcome sin,but to show us that sin had already overcome us and to guide us to GOD
In CHRIST.Its always been grace by faith.
In CHRIST.Its always been grace by faith.
Yes!
It is abundantly clear that both Kingdoms were conquered and taken into exile because of serial disobedience to the law.
The Northern Kingdom never returned and no longer exists as an entity of any kind.
The Kingdom of Judah did return - a remnant anyway - from captivity and survives until today as an ethnic group that are called Jews.
God did eventually allow all of the consequences of sin and disobedience to catch up with Israel, both individually and corporately...
Surprising but ok. I think they had the same salvation that we have only looking forward instead of backwards to the Christ.
M
MasterAnakinSW
Guest
DesertRose, when Jesus came onto the scene he wanted things changed. The law was simply guidelines to help us through our lives. Jesus was the new Torah and therefore taught us the way. Not to discount what the Law states but only to enhance what God has already given us.
Very funny.
So you actually think that God saved Abraham by faith then Israel by works then went back to faith for us?
Not only that but the works he gave Israel were impossible for them. why do you suppose in your view God made a way for Abraham and us but made it impossible for Israel?
I appreciate the Offer but I have no interest in going back into bondage. Ill stay with the Lord on this one, He is more than able to save but thanx anyway.
The covenant God made with Abraham was very specific.
It was also unconditional.
The covenant God made with Israel was absolutely conditional - and it was conditional on their obedience to the law.
The New Covenant is unconditional.
naw the question wopuld be what are you saying as if you know me? its not about WANTING to follow the spirit, this gog doctrine has so many people grabbing at air spending time explaini ng why nothing applies how following the spirit has no impact on what you actually do, our actions determine the truth of allllll things.
its not about the past its about today How will a person Live? will they walk the gospel out truly from the heart and trade this worthless life for One that is eternal And real. the church is dying wuickly because so many set to denying the word of God and spend thier time explaining why its not about His Word. it simply is. to follow the spirit IS to believe in, accept and follow the Gospel. not the " gog" but the actual Life giving, free setting, renewing Gospel. it has everything to do with How we receive Jesus and The gospel.
there is no salvation apart from what He offers. there is no FAITH apart from works that faith is dead and wuill only lead to death, that thought that " well i believe theres One God, i believe Jesus died for my sins. so thats faith. that is not even close to Faith. until Christians understand thst Gods Word is Our actual Way of Life, and set thier Heart to walk the faith out rather than explaining How grace cancels out everything........the church is fading and sinking in the growing Mire in this world. Look around man, look closely at the world around you, it is 100 percent opposed to Gods principles divorce common place, murder, rape, pornography, the Love of Money, trust in wealth on and on everything God has forbidden the world chases and tries to convince Christians that we can live in those things, and well were saved anyways.
its foolishnes, and honestly when someone Hears the truth about actually living Gods Way, and then a bunch of goggers come along explaining How naw its all grace. grace this, grace that, faith this, faith that has nothing to do with works blah blah. there is a real need for people who live a sinners Life and call themselves children of God to look intently at thier own ONGOING sins. until the conviction comes from doing that and brings the proper Godly sorrow.........as many times as a person wishes they can say Grace grace, and it will never change them. never set them free.
I would advise People to become very conscious of thier own sin, and forget about the other guys flaws. to set the heart on actually living the Gospel, Not the Mosaic Law, but the Gospel, because if a person is truly following the gospel....suprise the Law will be fully met in that person. as romans 8 makes Clear. im Hoinestly tired of the gog and all its offspring tired of Hearing How Gods Word no longer applies. that grace alone stuff is a death sentance and a fools hope. Gotta Walk the Walk, Not explain why our part is irrelevant. its Just about Jesus making us new, for the very purpose, the Sole purpose that we can now live Not as the sinners ruled by the Law, but as Children of God bearing the name of His Only begotten Son. i watch my own self every Hour because i understand through experience that its not an effortles thing or a magical thing. and also i understand when i have been fooled into thinking well its all done im saved nothing more to see or do here, im only setting myself up for another fall.
i assure you friend, you are still in the flesh until you put that to death and thats a fight to the end having Gods Spirit is the way, walking after Jesus is the Life. Possibly you know your in the spirit already, if thats the case then you are perfect having crucified the flesh with its passions and desires my old man still tries to Get up sometimes and if you dont keep foot on His throat, hell be up landing hard blows and entangling people like before. so yea i will forever as long as im on this earth look directly at the Old sinner and keep that as a warning of who i was, and a revelation of who I am Now. important stuff that repentance, and it doesnt come when we ignore Our sins it comes through acknowledgeing and repenting meaning to actually change Our Mind and Our ways.
Actually make sure you get that right, God in exodus 19 intended Israel to live in the same Covenant that he promised Abraham. IT was Israel not God who established a different covenant.
Paul is clear in Galatians 4 that the old covenant was the work of men:
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
take careful note that Paul says that the covenant on mt sinai was bondage likened to Agar. Agar was the Egyptian servant who was a slave. Abraham slept with her to bring the promise of God. But the promise of God does not need men to bring it about. Thus it was Abraham's actions with Hagar that was old covenant, not Gods promise which was new covenant.
Old covenant is not a dispensation but a reaction of the people.
Adam and Eve putting fig leaves to cover their nakedness was old covenant. God clothing them with skins and promising a messiah was new covenant.
The old and new covenant have always been around from the very beginning. They are two reactions to Gods promises.
Abraham learned the lesson and believed/Had faith in God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
But Israel when offered to enter into this same promise they said:
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
They thought God needed their help and thus God then humbles himself and meets them where they are at and gives them the law in wrath that they might see that they have made a foolish reply yet they replied:
Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
They did not understand that it is impossible to please God without faith as their Father Abraham learnt. They failed to cherish the promise and accept it as it was offered. God knew this as we see here:
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
God knew their hearts that without faith they were only going to stay slaves to sin and would not obey His law. He led them through the wilderness in the way He did to try an show them this very heart problem:
Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
But they did not get it, They after failure after failure still did not come to faith as it is written:
Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
They did not trust as Abraham did. God did not lead them into a works based covenant they rejected Gods covenant and chose to work for it which could never work. Gods desire for them then was:
Deu 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Notice again the farther was chosen, Abraham Isaac and Jacob had faith in God and this was the reason God chose them because they were the seed of Abraham in whom God had made promise. But they did not have right hearts like Abraham.
god predicts their continued rebellion based on that fact that they made a faulty covenant:
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
It is the work of God to change the heart but they failed to see their need.
The problem is they rejected the covenant made with Abraham to have a covenant of works. God humbled himself and allowed it because He had promised Abraham to use his seed. But God tried to warn them constantly that unless they had faith and trusted Him they would never succeed.
Deu 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
notice the covenant was different as I am sure you would agree.
they rejected the covenant made with Abraham and thus did not continue in it as it is written:
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
So it is that God gave the law to show them their need and to show them and lead them to Christ who was with them as it is written:
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
God would have them look to Him for salvation not themselves.
The only reason they did not attain is not because of the law but because of the way in which they tried to covenant with God as it is written:
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
they did not have faith just as it says in Deut. They tried to work their way. Had they accepted the covenant made with Abraham they would not have been given the law. They would have not needed it because like Abraham they would have become the law themselves by the working of God by faith, as it is written of Abraham who did not have the law:
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
how so?
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
So then it is evident that the old covenant has always existed form the beginning so has the new. And the difference is how Men react to Gods promise. Some try to help God and that is old covenant. Others have faith and that is new covenant.
The difference is works vs faith. simple.
Israel chose the old covenant. God offered them the new covenant.