Obedience REQUIRED

[Freed18]

Not if you teach salvation by works and sinless perfection.

With that comment I have to ask...are you teaching a "It was forced onto me" and "Sinfulness doesn't matter" doctrines ?
I don't teach any doctrine dependent on the Mosaic Law's works for conversion.
I teach that a man can obey God perfectly...thanks to God's gifts of repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins
And rebirth from God's seed, after the destruction of the old man/creature.

 

[Freed18]

Obedience is work. You believe in works righteousness. It's only your delusion that you're sinless that makes it plausible. Your obedience will not save you.

It seem that you prefer disobedience...(I hope I am reading that wrong).
Obedience is the natural fruit of rebirth from God's seed.
Those opposed to obedience to God and His Son, seem to be unregenerated.
And are still bearing the devil's fruit.

 

[mailmandan]

then why are works required?

Required for what according to Paul in Romans 4:4-6? Not required as the basis or means by which we obtain salvation./merit eternal life. Also see Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Good works glorify God. (Matthew 5:16) Good works are profitable to men. (Titus 3:8) We are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

Instead of carpet bombing me with a landslide of verses (which demonstrates that you are not really interested in reasoning through the scriptures together) try discussing one or two verses at a time.

there are different kinds of works, dead works apart from Christ Jn 15:5 living works in Christ phil 4:13

Good works which are produced from faith that is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-10) are works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.

if works of righteousness are not required then we can sin all we want and die unrepentant and go winging off to heaven?

Straw man argument. Children of God practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *As for works of righteousness, see Titus 3:5.

show me that in scripture!

Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt flesh, which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. (descriptive of unbelievers/make believers) Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (descriptive of believers) See the contrast?

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

In Romans 8, Paul also sets up a contrast between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/make believers) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Again, see the contrast?

how can we avoid sin and remain in Christ on the narrow road without works?

How can you be in Christ on the narrow road and produce works without faith? Our best efforts to avoid sin and works are not what washes away our sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. (Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 1:7; Colossoans 1:14)

mt 26:41 watch and pray that you enter not into temptation

and sin separates us from God!

thks

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Freed18]

Yes, absolutely, that is exactly what I'm saying

You should reread my post, as we are not in agreement.

- that we can do nothing to save ourselves - and that same condition applies to everyone who becomes saved and precisely what makes Jesus Christ alone the Savior and not man.

I obeyed the command to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins...to become a Christian.
Before I did, I was not a Christian and had no hope of eternal life in heaven.

Ears to hear, belief, and everything else that accompanies salvation are given as a byproduct of salvation, they are not its cause.

That really makes no sense, as without belief no man can even start a walk in Christ/in the light.

Those who are dead in sin as natural man is, are unable to hear or believe, and are oblivious to the things of the Spirit as we are told in 1 Co 2:14.

I feel that you are misusing that verse.
Especially when it is written that some are accepting God at His word, and manifesting that belief by obeying God's commandements to become Christians.
1 John 1:9 is a perfect example of that..."If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Though confession and cleaning are both labors, they are not the works of the Law.
Are you opining that a man has salvation without his confession and cleaning ?

Jesus Christ our God and Savior, gives salvation freely to His children without any prerequisites, stipulations, requirements, or limitation whatsoever being imposed upon them, besides that they are His children. And that is what makes it a free gift from God's exceeding mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. Oddly enough, initially, many (most) do not want it on that basis - the old wine is better for a time, I guess.
I think what you're missing is that God does not give salvation on the basis of a judge who gives the gift contingent upon what man must produce to obtain it- not even to the slightest degree. Were that the case, then no man would be able to satisfy that requirement. Instead, God freely gives salvation to those His spiritual children from eternity past on the basis of a loving father (Poppa) giving to His children a wonderful gift- freely, without encumbrances, from/with/by His exceedingly great love through Jesus Christ. However, not all are His spiritual children.

God will give eternal life to those that obey Him.
Matt 7:21-23 comes to mind..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It takes our own acceptance, to facilitate becoming children of God.
It is never forced on us.

I'll try to reply to the above tomorrow.

OK.

 

[Burn1986]

So you got an angry old guy starting a thread about works driven salvation. Hmm, I wonder if this train could run off the tracks, lol. How many pages has this thread gone?

 

[Freed18]

So you got an angry old guy starting a thread about works driven salvation. Hmm, I wonder if this train could run off the tracks, lol. How many pages has this thread gone?

How do you know he is old or angry ?
He seems to want people to obey his God.

 

[mailmandan]

Would that be the truth Jesus said could make us free from committing sin, in John 8:32-34 ?

Sinless perfection is not the truth. (1 John 1:8-10) Jesus uses the present active participle "practicing" or "doing" continually rather than the aorist participle which would mean a single, isolated act. This indicates a continuous lifestyle/ongoing practice of sin.

I agree that those bearing no fruit, or evil fruit, are not of God.

Amen! A good tree bears good fruit but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

But they had to believe and accept the free gift, and obey the ways and means of conversion, in order to start bearing fruit.
It isn't forced onto us.

Bad trees do not bear good fruit.

The only works written against by Paul were the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, tithing, etc.

False. Not only those works of the law but works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Also keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) so your saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

 

[Freed18]

Sinless perfection is not the truth. (1 John 1:8-10) Jesus uses the present active participle "practicing" or "doing" continually rather than the aorist participle which would mean a single, isolated act. This indicates a continuous lifestyle/ongoing practice of sin.

Using scrip's addressing those who walk in darkness-sin, don't apply to the people walking in the light-God.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Amen! A good tree bears good fruit but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

Making all the self-professing sinners bad trees.

Bad trees do not bear good fruit.

That is right !
Only those who have turned permanently from sin can bear good fruit.

False. Not only those works of the law but works in general.

False, as hearing, believing, repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, must be done to even be converted to Christianity.

(Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Also keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law

Yes they can.
The works Paul wrote against had nothing morally applicable to them.

(Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) so your saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

I cannot agree with doctrines that allow sin.
They come from bad trees.