Obedience REQUIRED

[ScooterJackson]

lets at least obey the golden words of Christ!

They'll say that's trying to earn your salvation and so they obey the deceitful words of the devil instead.

 

[Burn1986]

You sure about that? Not one person teaching catholicism or reformed theology?

Mmm, yeah Catholics. But most everyone on here is probably saved. I think the devil beats some of these guys up over salvation.

 

[ScooterJackson]

A reformed person does not believe they are saved by works.

But they do add things to the Word of God that the Lord never said, and they take things out of God's Word that the Lord did say leading to them teaching false doctrine just like their pharisee brethren

ok. so why are you adding to his words?

I'm not. That would be the reformers and catholics adding to and taking away from God's Word just like their pharisee brethren did.

It seems you have been indoctrinated by a form of catholicism, if you think you can lose salvation.. Because that is modern day phariseeism.

Uh, no.

 

[amazingrace]

I don't follow reformed theology. Romans 6 talks about having grace and then why sin because of the grace given?

Then it goes on to talk about the battle between flesh and the Spirit.

Believers should go on to faithfulness in their walk, but the battle remains.

Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

phil 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, Mygrace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

all for the glory of God!

thks

 

[rogerg]

Actually man is to be co laborers with God. We are to submit to the leading / power of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 3:9 - For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If God does everything and man does nothing then that brings forth the idea that it's God's fault for everyone not being saved and it's God's fault if a Christian continues walking in sin.

This is one of the false teachings that came out of reformed theology and is not biblical in the least.

1 Peter 1:14-17 - As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway (reprobate)

Paul knew he had responsibility and it was not God doing everything.

Scooterjackson, your verses do not show that man is a partner with God in salvation. Consider the actual words of the verses.
First, you look at 1 Corinthians 3:9. You try to use it to say man helps do the work of salvation. But that is wrong. Paul is only talking about preaching the gospel on earth, not saving the soul. Look at the words you left out in that same verse. It says, "ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building." A building does not help the architect lay its own bricks. 1 Corinthians 3:6 says, "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase." The planters and the waterers are nothing. God does all the saving work because only God can give the life and the increase. Before that we are dead spiritually.
Second, you say that if God does everything, then it is God's fault if people are not saved. That is the exact human argument that Paul exposes in Romans 9. Look at Romans 9:19 where it says, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" Paul does not change his mind or apologize for God's absolute power. He says clearly in verse 20, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" God made salvation strictly a family affair where the family's father rescues only his children chosen by Him as children from eternity past with no responsibility to do so for any others.
Third, you quote 1 Corinthians 9:27 and claim Paul was afraid of losing his salvation and becoming a reprobate. That changes the definition of the verses words. Paul is speaking about him becoming a castaway in preaching and bringing the gospel, not in terms of salvation. The word castaway in that verse does not mean going to hell. It means being disapproved or losing a reward in the earthly race. Paul knew his salvation was completely secure. At the end of his life in 2 Timothy 4:7, he says, "I have finished her course, I have kept the faith." He was not performing to keep himself out of hell. I am content to let the plain words stand.

 

[Burn1986]

And… we’re back at salvation.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Scooterjackson, your verses do not show that man is a partner with God in salvation.

Those that don't believe what God says would make that assessment

You try to use it to say man helps do the work of salvation.

If a person is not submitting themselves to the Lord then by default they have submitted themselves to the devil.

Paul does not change his mind or apologize for God's absolute power.

Paul was led of the Holy Spirit do Paul did not believe that the Lord decides that He only wants a few to be saved and He wants all others to go to hell. That's deception satan taught to followers of reformed theology who believe they can live in sin thinking God chose them for salvation and they can live like the devil and still be saved. They believe wrong and are in serious error.

Paul is speaking about him becoming a castaway

And that word castaway is translated a reprobate elsewhere in the New Testament.

Romans 11:21,22 - For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2 Peter 2:20 (Companion Scripture - Matthew 12:43-45)
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

But they do add things to the Word of God that the Lord never said, and they take things out of God's Word that the Lord did say leading to them teaching false doctrine just like their pharisee brethren

A pharisee is a legalist tryign to earn salvation by their works.

Addingto the word of God does not make one a pharisee.

I'm not. That would be the reformers and catholics adding to and taking away from God's Word just like their pharisee brethren did.

You claim salvation can be lost? or have I misunderstood you?

Uh, no.

we will see.. Please answer my question

 

[rogerg]

Those that don't believe what God says would make that assessment



If a person is not submitting themselves to the Lord then by default they have submitted themselves to the devil.



Paul was led of the Holy Spirit do Paul did not believe that the Lord decides that He only wants a few to be saved and He wants all others to go to hell. That's deception satan taught to followers of reformed theology who believe they can live in sin thinking God chose them for salvation and they can live like the devil and still be saved. They believe wrong and are in serious error.



And that word castaway is translated a reprobate elsewhere in the New Testament.

Romans 11:21,22 - For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2 Peter 2:20 (Companion Scripture - Matthew 12:43-45)
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Scooterjackson, your individual replies fail to address the literal definitions of the text, and your verses describe corporate timelines and unregenerate natures rather than the loss of individual salvation. Please consider the actual words of the verses.
First, your use of Romans 11:21–22 to claim a child of God can lose their salvation obscures the corporate context of the chapter. In Romans 11:13, Paul explicitly states who he is addressing: "For I speak to you Gentiles." He is not writing about individual salvation. He is speaking corporately about the dispensational timelines of national groups. The natural branches represent national Israel, who were corporately broken off from the position of visible gospel privilege. The "Gentiles" represent the collective non-Jewish nations who were corporately grafted in to hear the word. The fact that verse 17 says "some" of the branches were broken off proves this is national, because God never cast away His individual elect remnant inside Israel. The warning that the Gentiles can be cut off means that if the Gentile nations as a collective group do not continue in that light, God will remove the visible position of gospel privilege from the Gentile world. It has nothing to do with an eternal child of promise going to hell.
Second, you quote 2 Peter 2:20 to claim a saved person can fall away and be lost. But you left out the literal description of these people in verse 22. The text flatly states: "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Peter does not say a sheep turned into a dog or a sow. Their inner nature was always a dog and a sow. They experienced an outward cleanup of their behavior through head knowledge, but they never possessed a new heart or the indwelling gift of God. When they return to the world, they are simply acting according to their true nature.
Third, your claim about the word castaway in 1 Corinthians 9:27 denies the explicit preaching context of the sentence. Paul says: "lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." The disqualification is strictly tied to his office as a preacher and the loss of his reward crown in the earthly race, not his eternal security. God made salvation strictly a family affair where the family's father rightfully rescues only his children having no responsibility nor commitment to do so for any others. Before that rescue, we were spiitually dead.

 

[Yissachar]

Psalms 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.

Son - Bar / Aramaic - (cr Bar Mitzvah)

The First Word of the Bible translated as "In the Beginning" is one word with six letters in Hebrew

Bet Resh Aleph Shin Yad Taw

Pictographically - Etymologically in order

p. Bet - House - implies Family

p. Resh - Head - meaning First, Chief -

Bet Resh spells Bar - Son

p. Aleph - Ox head = strength, power, leadership, authority, divine sovereignty

Bet Resh Aleph spells Bara - Created _ The second word in the scriptures.

Pictographically Etymologically the First three letters say

House family Head Son's Power Created

p. Shin - two front teeth- meanings of sharp, press, and the number two

p. Yad - a arm with a hand - meanings of power, work, deed, or action

Shin Yad spells the word Shay - Gift or Present H7862

p. Taw - a Cross

Shin Yad Taw spells the word - Shayit - Set or Appointed. H7896

House family Head-Chief Son's Power Created ~ Sharp Pressed Two Arm Gift Cross Appointed

 

[NightTwister]

They add to and take away from God's Word which is what the pharisees did that got Jesus upset at them.

Proverbs 30:5-6 - Every word of God proves true; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 - All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.



No, I accept what God says in His Word and have not been indoctrinated by reformed theology or catholicism
Of course those having been indoctrinated by man made religion claims those following God's Word are in error.

You speak of obedience then continually bear false witness against others. There's a log in your eye that you should be more concerned about.

 

[amazingrace]

Amazingrace, yes, it is entirely of God and not of ourselves. True obedience is given by God and is strictly obedience to the faith. When Jude 1:21 states to keep yourselves in the love of God, it is not establishing a conditional performance contract based on human willpower. We must look at the brackets of the exact same chapter to understand how a child of God is kept. Look at the very first verse, Jude 1:1, which identifies to whom the letter is addressed. It states clearly that it is written to them that are "sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." The verses establishes that preservation is a finished fact in Christ before the instructions were even given. Now look at the closing bracket in Jude 1:24. The text drops an absolute hammer on human performance by stating, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." The text does not say man keeps himself. It explicitly states that Christ is the sole Savior who possesses the ability to keep God's elect family - one and all - from falling. The commands to the family are the fruit of being preserved, not the cause of it.

---

oh I agree we need the initial grace of justification and union with God in Christ by grace and then we will be accountable to maintain and grow in grace!

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

Phil 4:13 in Christ? all things!

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

thks

 

[rogerg]

oh I agree we need the initial grace of justification and union with God in Christ by grace and then we will be accountable to maintain and grow in grace!

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

Phil 4:13 in Christ? all things!

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

thks

Amazingrace, growing in grace does not mean a person is on a performance treadmill to maintain their salvation or obtain more grace. It means growing further in the knowledge of the infinite grace through edification and scripture that has already been completely obtained once and for all. Consider the actual words on the page.
First, a child grows because it is already born into the family and possesses life, not to keep from being cast out of the family. 2 Peter 3:18 says to grow "in" grace. To grow in grace means you are already permanently locked inside that grace as an indwelling gift. It is the fruit of a secure relationship, not a conditional contract based on human willpower.
Second, you quote John 15:5. But a branch does not use its own willpower to stay attached to the vine. The vine is what holds and feeds the branch. Verse 16 is dispositive of the entire chapter by stating clearly that: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." Christ is the one who unilaterally chose the true branches, and His unbending decree is the only reason the elect family, the individuals of which were chosen from eternity past by God the Father, remain so spiritually.

 

[amazingrace]

Amazingrace, yes, it is entirely of God and not of ourselves. True obedience is given by God and is strictly obedience to the faith. When Jude 1:21 states to keep yourselves in the love of God, it is not establishing a conditional performance contract based on human willpower. We must look at the brackets of the exact same chapter to understand how a child of God is kept. Look at the very first verse, Jude 1:1, which identifies to whom the letter is addressed. It states clearly that it is written to them that are "sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." The verses establishes that preservation is a finished fact in Christ before the instructions were even given. Now look at the closing bracket in Jude 1:24. The text drops an absolute hammer on human performance by stating, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." The text does not say man keeps himself. It explicitly states that Christ is the sole Savior who possesses the ability to keep God's elect family - one and all - from falling. The commands to the family are the fruit of being preserved, not the cause of it.

---

oh I agree we need the initial grace of justification and union with God in Christ by grace and then we will be accountable to maintain and grow in grace!

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing!

Phil 4:13 in Christ? all things!

Amazingrace, yes, it is entirely of God and not of ourselves. True obedience is given by God and is strictly obedience to the faith. When Jude 1:21 states to keep yourselves in the love of God, it is not establishing a conditional performance contract based on human willpower. We must look at the brackets of the exact same chapter to understand how a child of God is kept. Look at the very first verse, Jude 1:1, which identifies to whom the letter is addressed. It states clearly that it is written to them that are "sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." The verses establishes that preservation is a finished fact in Christ before the instructions were even given. Now look at the closing bracket in Jude 1:24. The text drops an absolute hammer on human performance by stating, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." The text does not say man keeps himself. It explicitly states that Christ is the sole Savior who possesses the ability to keep God's elect family - one and all - from falling. The commands to the family are the fruit of being preserved, not the cause of it.

---

three are eternal Faith, hope, & charity! they are insperable!
1 cor 13:13

believe in God implies obedience!

mt 6:9-10

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Hebrews 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

thks

 

[amazingrace]

No, not all had faith. I was one who initially believed. I went out the front at a Billy Graham crusade when I was 16. I believed that Jesus was God and I believed that He died and rose again. But it did not stick and I was not saved, even though I signed a decision card. About 5 years later, I received Jesus fully. I knew the difference between the two experiences.

Intellectual acceptance of facts is not faith. Getting emotionally stirred is not faith either.

oh I agree the grace of baptism is required!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

A pharisee is a legalist who thinks they were saved by their works. They crucified christ because Christ rebuked them and their religious works. and called them self righteous.

A reformed person does not believe they are saved by works.

ok. so why are you adding to his words?

It seems you have been indoctrinated by a form of catholicism, if you think you can lose salvation.. Because that is modern day phariseeism.

who said we can lose salvation?

we die and are judged and enter into eternal salvation! at that point once saved? always saved!
Amen?

but here and now we only have the grace of justification, the promise of salvation to the faithful, if we persevere and grow in the grace we have in fragile vessels 2 cor 4:7 unto death mt 10:22 rev 2:10

and the warnings of sin causing the loss of God and grace!

*will never inherit the kingdom of God or attain to eternal salvation*

mt 25:30
Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27

rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

walk NOT after the flesh!


Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

thks

 

[mailmandan]

No, not all had faith. I was one who initially believed. I went out the front at a Billy Graham crusade when I was 16. I believed that Jesus was God and I believed that He died and rose again. But it did not stick and I was not saved, even though I signed a decision card. About 5 years later, I received Jesus fully. I knew the difference between the two experiences.

Intellectual acceptance of facts is not faith. Getting emotionally stirred is not faith either.

I had a similar experience as a teenager. Mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus joined with moral self-refermation is not a substitute for saving faith in Jesus joined with regeneration. Even the demons believe "mental assent" that Jesus is God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." By receiving Jesus fully we are trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. That is the difference between believing in our head and believing in our heart.

 

[Freed18]

A pharisee is a legalist tryign to earn salvation by their works.

I feel you really should have ended with..."their works of the Law."
Those were the only 'works' Paul ever wrote against.