Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[PeterJens]

None can.

You have absolutely no idea what justification actually is.

These two statements are simply not true. There are lots of things that defile a christian. Now you can say that this behaviour is ignored because of grace, but defilement has occured in the biblical sense.

Secondly we all have an idea of what justification is and can guess what your version is. But your language is trying to demean and talk down to someone. Now these arguments come from good places, people with sincere hearts searching for truth with the Lord. Why is it that such "absolutes" are being used with are simple not true. It neither honours the speaker or the person they are aimed at.

 

[PeterJens]

God chose the Jews and Jesus sacricficed Himself noone killed God (LOL killed God?????)
and you should take your own advice and be wary of the sinking sand that you stand on...

The two things are true. Jesus gave himself to die at the hands of the romans, inspired by the accusation of the Jews.
The Father gave them the authority by which to do it.

It sounds like to say the romans killed Jesus is blasphemy to you? Why is that?

 

[Budman]

These two statements are simply not true. There are lots of things that defile a christian. Now you can say that this behaviour is ignored because of grace, but defilement has occured in the biblical sense.

In the sense it can affect our salvation. Do you actually read what is written or just skim through posts?

But your language is trying to demean and talk down to someone.

Stop it. We're not children here.

Now these arguments come from good places, people with sincere hearts searching for truth with the Lord.

Sorry, but I don't believe for a second HeRose is searching for truth.

Why is it that such "absolutes" are being used

Because truth is absolute.

 

[gb9]

In the sense it can affect our salvation. Do you actually read what is written or just skim through posts?



Stop it. We're not children here.



Sorry, but I don't believe for a second HeRose is searching for truth.



Because truth is absolute.

exactly. truth is absolute. we are saved by grace. period. absolute truth. when anyone says " we are saved by grace BUT.... " then that person just veered away from truth.

 

[PeterJens]

So, the answer to the question "why the cross instead of Jesus dying anywhere?"
One it fulfilled prophecy in Psalms
Two it breaks curses "cursed is he...."
NOT because of some flaky theory you have about Jews killing God because you think they thought they had head knowledge and tried to unsucessfully followed...blah, blah, blah

You show ideas as if they are an either or. These are things that are all true. I understand your intention is to demean me.
I realise you do not regard me as a brother in Christ. God bless you, I hope you grow in the grace and love showed through His death on the cross so that we might gain forgiveness of sins, and eternal life.

By the way to you think the pharisees followed God then?

 

[PeterJens]

In the sense it can affect our salvation. Do you actually read what is written or just skim through posts?
Stop it. We're not children here.
Sorry, but I don't believe for a second HeRose is searching for truth.
Because truth is absolute.

You are behaving just like a child, dictating your perspective on someone else. Maybe you have never engaged with unbelievers, but you do not start with dictating your ideas as if they are the only perspective possible.

You put your point of view and why you believe it and invite others to contribute. Now what is happening here is just assertion and rejection. Once you say someone is not searching for truth, you in christian terms are calling them a liar.

Now I know people who honestly disagree with each other and both are searching for the truth. Neither are lying and both are sincere. Have you never come across this? So much of what we believe and think is a mix of emotion, experience and assumptions. I hope and pray grace and mercy has taught you this much.

 

[Budman]

I understand your intention is to demean me.

Pete, there's an old saying that goes:

"Don't play the victim to circumstances you created."

 

[PeterJens]

exactly. truth is absolute. we are saved by grace. period. absolute truth. when anyone says " we are saved by grace BUT.... " then that person just veered away from truth.

Truth is not absolute. Truth always has a context, assumptions, position. I tried once to think does morality actually exist away from God. As God is love itself, the essence of purity and the rules by which everything functions and references, outside the Lord nothing works. So the closer you get to God the more obvious things become, because He is the source and reference point.

It is why sin makes sense when you are not in communion with God, because everything centers around your personal desires and needs which are king and the driving force. The consequences also do not matter because death is inevitable and nothing really matters as you have no control or understanding over where it leads.

I do not expect people to agree with me, but the reason why we dwell in sin is because we lack communion with the Lord.
It is not the rational assent of faith that gives us the power, but the dynamic relationship with the heart of the Lord as expressed through the cross.

 

[Budman]

You are behaving just like a child, dictating your perspective on someone else.

It's not my perspective, Pete. It's the Bible's.

Maybe you have never engaged with unbelievers, but you do not start with dictating your ideas as if they are the only perspective possible.

Like you just did in the bold part?

Well, does 2+2=4 always?

Truth is not subjective, Pete.

Once you say someone is not searching for truth, you in christian terms are calling them a liar.

Yes. exactly. That's what I'm doing. And thank-you for noticing.

So much of what we believe and think is a mix of emotion, experience and assumptions.

For you, maybe it is. But the source of a Christian's truth is Scripture. And it's quite clear when it comes to what is being discussed here. Salvation is a gift that cannot be acquired or maintained, by our own efforts in any way.

Period.

 

[Budman]

Truth is not absolute

Is that absolutely true?

 

[PeterJens]

Pete, there's an old saying that goes:
"Don't play the victim to circumstances you created."

You need to understand one thing, I am not trying to please you, or say nice things. You have declared your position plain and clearly. I am sure given a means of execution people would already be dead by now.

A simple question to you. If people are saved forever once they declare their initial faith in Christ, why are you not doing a Billy Graham mission every day everywhere you can. If you get everyone to say the prayer, you have saved the world.

And how do you measure real faith? The walk in trust for 1 second, 5 minutes, a day, a week, a month, a year.

If Jesus has established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in His body, where is it? Is it in the 30% of americans who no longer go to church but regard themselves as christians? Is it in the church goers who you say are legalists and hypocrites?
Is it in the RCC or mormons or SDA's?

Now for me it is in those who put their faith in Jesus and keep it in Jesus. Most are quiet believers who do their part, whose lives changed and they witness where they can and hope for some better guidance and in filling by the Holy Spirit.

 

[gb9]

Truth is not absolute. Truth always has a context, assumptions, position. I tried once to think does morality actually exist away from God. As God is love itself, the essence of purity and the rules by which everything functions and references, outside the Lord nothing works. So the closer you get to God the more obvious things become, because He is the source and reference point.

It is why sin makes sense when you are not in communion with God, because everything centers around your personal desires and needs which are king and the driving force. The consequences also do not matter because death is inevitable and nothing really matters as you have no control or understanding over where it leads.

I do not expect people to agree with me, but the reason why we dwell in sin is because we lack communion with the Lord.
It is not the rational assent of faith that gives us the power, but the dynamic relationship with the heart of the Lord as expressed through the cross.

and this is the problem with legalism: there are no absolutes. everything is always in flux. am I REALLY saved?? have I been good enough?? did I REALLY repent of that sin?? did I REALLY get forgiveness. all this is poison, because If I constantly worry about my relationship with God, I am in effect calling Christ a liar, and parts of the Bible not really true.

 

[roaringkitten]

Nobody here is teaching against obeying Christ. So........

Unfortunately this may appear true, but actually for some is true and for other not.

If I say all Jesus said is something to take into our hearts and obey. But clarity needs to be given as to what it actually is and what it means.

Now some would disown a lot of Jesus's words to them, but directed at others. So their obedience is different.

So unfortunately your words ignore these differences.

Why not actually post proof instead of continuing to ramble these accusations! Who here teaches against obeying Christ? Just one example?

 

[psalm6819]

]Truth is not absolute.[/B] Truth always has a context, assumptions, position. I tried once to think does morality actually exist away from God. As God is love itself, the essence of purity and the rules by which everything functions and references, outside the Lord nothing works. So the closer you get to God the more obvious things become, because He is the source and reference point.

It is why sin makes sense when you are not in communion with God, because everything centers around your personal desires and needs which are king and the driving force. The consequences also do not matter because death is inevitable and nothing really matters as you have no control or understanding over where it leads.

I do not expect people to agree with me, but the reason why we dwell in sin is because we lack communion with the Lord.
It is not the rational assent of faith that gives us the power, but the dynamic relationship with the heart of the Lord as expressed through the cross.

Yes it is. Jesus said he was the Way, the TRUTH Absolute, in my opinion

Those who dwell in sin don't lack communion with the Lord they lack a Savior.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

These two statements are simply not true. There are lots of things that defile a christian. Now you can say that this behaviour is ignored because of grace, but defilement has occured in the biblical sense.

What's astonishing is that they do not have ears that can hear.

Those of the church

"... who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word."

The Christian gnostics

"...hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."

"... they maintain that ... it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged."​

Maybe they just don't care because they believe they are right. The Christian gnostics believed that they were the true Christians.

 

[PeterJens]

It's not my perspective, Pete. It's the Bible's.
Like you just did in the bold part?
Well, does 2+2=4 always?
Truth is not subjective, Pete.
Yes. exactly. That's what I'm doing. And thank-you for noticing.
For you, maybe it is. But the source of a Christian's truth is Scripture. And it's quite clear when it comes to what is being discussed here. Salvation is a gift that cannot be acquired or maintained, by our own efforts in any way.
Period.

Salvation is what God does, He saves us. But part of salvation is what we do in response. Jesus opens the door, we have to walk in. He calls we need to follow. He shows us by example, we need to do.

When God asks you to do something, is he asking or taking control?
Did Jesus calls us servants or friends? Is he asking for our input and suggestions or just saying it is a one way street?

I hope you can honestly answer these questions, because it is fairly fundamental principle of walking with the Lord.

 

[gb9]

why are you so obsessed with gnostics?? you doing research or something. seriously dude it's all you talk about.

 

[roaringkitten]

Truth is not absolute.

Jesus IS the truth! Is He not absolute? I honestly cannot follow your ramblings on this forum most of the time.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

 

[psalm6819]

You need to understand one thing, I am not trying to please you, or say nice things. You have declared your position plain and clearly. I am sure given a means of execution people would already be dead by now.

A simple question to you. If people are saved forever once they declare their initial faith in Christ, why are you not doing a Billy Graham mission every day everywhere you can. If you get everyone to say the prayer, you have saved the world.

And how do you measure real faith? The walk in trust for 1 second, 5 minutes, a day, a week, a month, a year.

If Jesus has established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in His body, where is it? Is it in the 30% of americans who no longer go to church but regard themselves as christians? Is it in the church goers who you say are legalists and hypocrites?
Is it in the RCC or mormons or SDA's?

Now for me it is in those who put their faith in Jesus and keep it in Jesus. Most are quiet believers who do their part, whose lives changed and they witness where they can and hope for some better guidance and in filling by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus gives abundant life so why do you think everyone wishes they were dead???? You shouldn't project.....

 

[Budman]

I am sure given a means of execution people would already be dead by now.

Exaggerate much?

A simple question to you. If people are saved forever once they declare their initial faith in Christ, why are you not doing a Billy Graham mission every day everywhere you can. If you get everyone to say the prayer, you have saved the world.

The words themselves aren't magic, Pete.

And I try to witness every day - do you?

We are expected to do what we can, where we can, Pete. The most unsung heroes, for example, are small town Pastors with small congregations. The ones who labor day in and out - and not for worldwide recognition.

Seeds are planted, and others water.

And how do you measure real faith?

By a mustard seed. If one believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus as payment for their sins - it's enough.

If Jesus has established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in His body,

Our kingdom is not of this earth, Pete. This place is passing away, even as we are passing through it. I'm surprised you don't know that.

Is it in the church goers who you say are legalists and hypocrites? Is it in the RCC or mormons or SDA's?

Yes to the three you mentioned - certainly.

Now for me it is in those who put their faith in Jesus and keep it in Jesus.

It's God who grants us faith, Pete. It isn't you or me.