Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

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psalm6819 said:
Yes it is. Jesus said he was the Way, the TRUTH Absolute, in my opinion
Those who dwell in sin don't lack communion with the Lord they lack a Savior.
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Jesus is the truth. How much have you thought about this statement. How can Jesus be the truth?
It is a way of speaking we are not used to and hides a deeper truth. John says through Jesus everything was made. Nothing exists without reference to Him. His involvement is caught up with all aspects of life.

Now this has always interested me. Spending time understanding everything Jesus said and what it means is key to eternity and key to the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not just an idea, He is saying He is the anchor point. Yet when I talk about looking at his deeds, his words, thinking on why and how he behaved I am doing something wrong.

Yet you say I am wrong to spend time dwelling and thinking on Jesus. Do you see a contradiction in what you are saying and your criticism of me. I sincerely do not want to put you down at all, but just encourage you to spend more time with Jesus and who He is and His testimony and time with His disciples. These words he spoke are eternal for a reason.
 
Budman said:
He calls us brothers and sisters.

Pete, you are so misguided, it's chilling.
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Ok Budman. If Jesus called us brothers and sisters, then we are brothers in the Lord.

Yet you use the term chilling. Are you not able to love people who are different to you in small ways or is that so alien a concept? Now some hold to faith but in reality it is just a defence mechanism to make the world a safer place around them and all the nasties over there. So I am wondering which circle of love you are drawing?
 
gb9 said:
why are you so obsessed with gnostics?? you doing research or something. seriously dude it's all you talk about.
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It's fascinating. Aren't you blessed to know what they believed so that you don't make the same mistakes? I think it's fair to say that those who hold to Christian gnostic beliefs won't be inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Like John said:

​Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they went out], in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19​
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
What's astonishing is that they do not have ears that can hear.

Those of the church

"... who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word."

The Christian gnostics

"...hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."

"... they maintain that ... it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged."​

Maybe they just don't care because they believe they are right. The Christian gnostics believed that they were the true Christians.
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I agree. These people have no sense of grace or accomodation of sincerity that people may take a different view based on the same bible and the same Lord. It is like without this certainty their whole world will collapse. But that is probably the case and why they hold so firmly to this structure, because it is not the truth, it just serves a purpose in their lives like a picture that can never change, that is a cuddle blanket when things go wrong.
 
Ok Budman. If Jesus called us brothers and sisters, then we are brothers in the Lord.
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Sadly, no. We are not brothers in the Lord, Pete - because you preach and believe a different gospel than what is revealed in Scripture. Yours is a salvation-by-works.

Are you not able to love people who are different to you in small ways or is that so alien a concept?
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This is going to be harsh, Pete. But at this point, according to the Bible, we are enemies. You are an enemy of the cross because you believe that the blood of Jesus isn't enough to cleanse us from all sin - past, present, and future. It's that simple. But, we are commanded to love our enemies - and I do. If I didn't, I'd have no problem watching you and HeRose sliding into hell.
 
PeterJens said:
You need to understand one thing, I am not trying to please you, or say nice things. You have declared your position plain and clearly. I am sure given a means of execution people would already be dead by now.

A simple question to you. If people are saved forever once they declare their initial faith in Christ, why are you not doing a Billy Graham mission every day everywhere you can. If you get everyone to say the prayer, you have saved the world.

And how do you measure real faith? The walk in trust for 1 second, 5 minutes, a day, a week, a month, a year.

If Jesus has established the Kingdom of Heaven on earth in His body, where is it? Is it in the 30% of americans who no longer go to church but regard themselves as christians? Is it in the church goers who you say are legalists and hypocrites?
Is it in the RCC or mormons or SDA's?

Now for me it is in those who put their faith in Jesus and keep it in Jesus. Most are quiet believers who do their part, whose lives changed and they witness where they can and hope for some better guidance and in filling by the Holy Spirit.
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LUKE 23: 42-43

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


How many seconds were there between the thief's plea to Jesus and his acquisition of the gift of salvation?

How many good works were accomplished between the two verses?

How long did the thief maintain his faith before Jesus granted him the kingdom?
 
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PeterJens said:
These two statements are simply not true. There are lots of things that defile a christian. Now you can say that this behaviour is ignored because of grace, but defilement has occured in the biblical sense.

Secondly we all have an idea of what justification is and can guess what your version is. But your language is trying to demean and talk down to someone. Now these arguments come from good places, people with sincere hearts searching for truth with the Lord. Why is it that such "absolutes" are being used with are simple not true. It neither honours the speaker or the person they are aimed at.
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Jesus cleansing is on going and every hear of washing in the word?

and yes, absolute is absolute...no situational ethics or watering down truth so it is more easily understood

line by line, precept by precept

not philosophies of men
 
gb9 said:
and this is the problem with legalism: there are no absolutes. everything is always in flux. am I REALLY saved?? have I been good enough?? did I REALLY repent of that sin?? did I REALLY get forgiveness. all this is poison, because If I constantly worry about my relationship with God, I am in effect calling Christ a liar, and parts of the Bible not really true.
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amen!

the Enemy used to plague me with doubt & anxiety about my standing with God -- until one day the Spirit revealed to me, and i understood, that i was doubting God's faithfulness, and the promises He made to me - promises He made contingent only on that i believed Him, and kept faith in Him. i saw that by doubting my salvation, i wasn't doubting myself - i was doubting the One who saved me. i was not believing what He said: that He began the work and would finish it. i was not believing what He said: that when i am faithless, He is faithful. that He would not lose a single one of His sheep. that He would in no way cast out whoever came to Him, and that no one came to Him except that the Father drew them.

i don't question my own salvation anymore. i trust Him -- and now i only thank Him, and i only have joy in Him, and peace; not fear, but security. He has become my rest. He has given me peace, that nothing can take away!

is that "OSAS" that i feel? that i know?
i don't know that i care. but i believe that i've received the true gospel, and i don't see that the scripture refutes this -- i see it reinforcing it.
i wish you all knew this peace; that you all trusted Christ completely, and found rest in Him.
if you assume that the peace He gave me causes me to go around sinning like it's nothing and unimportant, or that i don't even try to do what is right, because in my spirit and my heart i have known assurance, well you're flat wrong, and i don't know why you think you can make those sorts of wild assumptions about people.

i see a lot of straw men at war with each other, and i know what is #1 danger to men made of straw, and i know that everything will be tested with fire. all that arguing will soon enough just be so much smoke. *poof*
what weight should we give stuff like that, knowing it's going to be burned up?
i don't worry about those straw people either.
 
There is an interesting divergence here. Jesus promises are true.
Knowing Jesus seems a distant thing to some, but the idea that nothing can separate the Lord from you is reassuring.
Amen. Now I rejoice in your trust in Christ, your faith in His death and resurrection.

You say to me I walk with the Lord in the Holy Spirit. I know His peace in my life. Amen.
So I ask one simple question. Are you happy in this walk? Do you know purity and righteousness here?

If you do, amen, so do I. If you feel condemned and in sin, do not feel downhearted, the Lord died so that we might be free. Confessing and sharing your struggles with other helps. Realising the place our failures are in Gods work of grace in our lives matters. Once we know the road to victory we can walk in it.

Now if you draw back, and say this cannot be true, I ask why not? Has not Christ bought the victory in the cross?
 
What strikes me as interesting, is an absolute is an absolute unless it is about our behaviour and what is acceptable and what is not.

So sin is acceptable. Now many verses say it is not acceptable to any degree. Yet I am told even the smallest sinful thought of desire or anger is sin, and therefore I am condemn. But no, that is not so, I am forgiven, it is just part of who I am which will be sorted out in the future.

This does not sound absolute. This sounds 100% watered down, situational ethics. Either ethics actually are about real sin and problems or they are just about condemnation. Either you can have victory or you are slaves to them until Jesus returns.

Now I would say if you hold to the concept of absolutes your faith makes you 100% a hypocrite.

I remember a conversation like this once. I said I was a sinner saved by grace. They said I should say I am a saint saved by grace. Funny how as the discussion has gone on, we are all sinners, lost in sin, but grace has made us holy, righteous and pure because it is Christs righteousness and not our own, so we are perfect except we are not.

Now that is where people are but it is not a consistant faith. It is why I do not hold to this view.

Now the reason why I call you brothers and sisters is because we follow the same Lord, with the same goal and the same morals. Our aim is to be obedient and walk in the Holy Spirit. Now it is obvious some of you are more judgemental, and want to cast me out of the Kingdom. Thankfully the Lord does not agree with you, but if you carry on in this vein it is your faith that is in danger, not mine.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
It's fascinating. Aren't you blessed to know what they believed so that you don't make the same mistakes? I think it's fair to say that those who hold to Christian gnostic beliefs won't be inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Like John said:
​Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they went out], in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19​
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I'm more blessed to know I can go to the Living Word of God to teach me the truth.

"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." Psa 18:30
 
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posthuman said:
amen!
the Enemy used to plague me with doubt & anxiety about my standing with God
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Posthuman - You need to spend time thinking about Jesus and His last week before His crucifixion. If you meet the Jesus who died for you and what He said, nothing will separate you from Him and His promises. Theology is one thing, knowing the man is another. It is why I do not understand many here and how they talk, because it is fear speaking.

The disciples were a fearful bunch when Jesus died. Then he appeared to them, anointed them with the Holy Spirit and the world was changed. It was not theology that changed them it was the man resurrected, and the man the knew who loved them had gone to a place they dared not go, and died in the worst way possible and still said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

That is our Lord, that is our King. Spend time with Him and the Holy Spirit will teach you more. The key issue is purity of your soul, the focus of your emotions and heart, and where you are heading. A time will come when many who felt they had arrived will find themselves rejected because all they were clinging to were the desires in their heart, wishful thinking, and when the Lord tested them they fell away like dust in the rain.

We are so rich is wealth yet so poor in spiritual and emotional understanding.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
It's fascinating. Aren't you blessed to know what they believed so that you don't make the same mistakes? I think it's fair to say that those who hold to Christian gnostic beliefs won't be inheriting the kingdom of heaven. Like John said:
​Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they went out], in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19​
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Here is a link to learn about Gnosticism.

What is Christian Gnosticism?
 
At the foot of the cross I bow, all my pride and sense of achievement is brought into perspective.
In one life of only 33 years, in a walk of 3 years with 12 men, a torture and death of 12 hours, the world was changed forever.
What love I have is as nothing, what works just wash away, what claims they are just illusions compared to the love that held Him there. All I want to do is praise His name and bring as many as I can to this man who gave so much to me, whose life and energy I owe all to Him and to Him alone.

How sad so many claim the name Christian but do not know this lonely hill, this hill of death and condemnation, of sin and hatred and finally of total victory of love and Gods resurrection. And yet strangely those who will not come to this place take the name christian and call me an unbeliever. Surely this world is stranger than I ever thought possible, but thanfully I know my Lord and His voice and I hope and pray you do also. So let us praise this glorious Lord who leads us into the Kingdom of Heaven through His sacrifical love, a life given for all so that those who seek can find communion with God for the first time.
 
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