J
JS1789
Guest
What role does obedience play in salvation? How do we know whether or not we have been obedient or faithful enough to go to heaven? Is it connected to grace? If so, how?
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Your obedience is your Acceptance through Christ's Faith -----Faith requires your positive response ---which is to receive ----
You do as the Scripture tells you to do -----Believe in your heart and confess your Right Faith with your mouth -----
Romans 10:9-10
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God)
, and with the mouth he confesses and confirms [his] salvation
It is not connected to Grace ----it is by and through Grace who is Jesus ----Grace here is a Person ----you did nothing to earn this gift of Salvation ----Jesus full of Grace paid your debt in full ----
J
JS1789
Guest
Obedience to God is founded in grace (Titus 2:11-12) and love (2 Cor. 5:14ff). The same grace that saved us (Eph. 2:8) is also the same grace that motivates, instructs, and warns us not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1, 12-18ff). Grace has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21). Jesus brought us salvation. On the cross, He died for all men (2 Cor. 5:15), and He brought us a soul saving message to all through His sacrifice, His words, His apostles and disciples. All of that is grace and is how His grace that has brought salvation has appeared to all men. In having mercy upon us, He saved us by His grace which instructs us, not only how to be saved, but also how to live such a life that we can walk worthy of our calling as a Christian to glorify God (Ti. 3:5, Ti. 2:11; Eph. 2:8, 4:1; 1 Cor. 6:20) .Even in our faithfulness and obedience, it is founded upon God’s grace. Grace is what keeps us out of sin. Not only does grace save us (Eph. 2:8), but it motivates us not to live in sin or want to sin (Rom. 6:1). God’s grace helps us be faithful by teaching us (Titus 2:12). Faithfulness and obedience is connected to grace. Faith and obedience doesn’t bypass God’s grace. It’s accepting, living, walking and continuing in God’s grace (Acts 13:43).
It’s not our works of righteousness that saves us (Titus 3:5). It’s the righteousness commandments/works of God that do (Ps. 119:172, Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Acts 17:30, Rom. 10:9-10, Acts 2:21, Col. 2:12, Acts 2:38, Jms 2:24). It is faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).
Obedience to God is living by faith that works by love, as we continue to look to the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus (Gal. 5:6; Heb. 12:2). By His grace, we receive what is promised, which we do not deserve: Eternal life (1 Jn 2:25).
The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace.
The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)
His grace instructs us (Titus 2:11-12).
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have access by faith into this grace…
In all cases, those that believed were required to do more. In Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch was asked if he believed, followed by his verbal, response clearly stating his belief which is also consistent with Romans 10:8-10.
The Jews on the day of Pentecost were told to do additional things subsequent to their realization that they killed the Christ in whom they then believed in; they were told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Paul, subsequent to his encounter with Jesus was told he yet had something more to do, and in Acts 22, he was told to arise and be baptized.
Mark 16:15-16 says you must be baptized if you believe to be saved.
So, yes. In the example is mentioned above, more was required of the believer, and doing what was commanded of them constitutes their obedience.
The Jews on the day of Pentecost were told to do additional things subsequent to their realization that they killed the Christ in whom they then believed in; they were told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Paul, subsequent to his encounter with Jesus was told he yet had something more to do, and in Acts 22, he was told to arise and be baptized.
Mark 16:15-16 says you must be baptized if you believe to be saved.
So, yes. In the example is mentioned above, more was required of the believer, and doing what was commanded of them constitutes their obedience.
So Jesus came through Jesus?
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17
J
JS1789
Guest
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be good enough to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). So again, obeying God's law has absolute nothing to do with trying to be good enough to earn our entrance into heaven or eternal life, but rather it is the way to know God and Jesus, which is the way enter heaven and have eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of God's law and something that we inherit is a gift, not something that is earned as the result of being good enough.
J
JS1789
Guest
Great response. God has always required obedience all the way back to the garden.
Just a start:
NET 1 John 3:23 Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave us the commandment.
How do we believe without in actuality being in obedience to His command to believe?
NET Romans 10:16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Paul for one understood the parallelism between obedience and faith.
If we're believing, then we're obeying and if we're obeying, then we're obeying.
We live out our lives as Christians in faith in God and His Christ/King our God / in obedience to God and His Christ/King our God doing Good Works we were newly created in righteousness and holiness to do (Eph2:10).
God's Good News of His Son and our Salvation in His Son is called the Good News of God's Grace (Acts20:24). We're saved by God's Grace through Faith which is parallel to Obedience. We believe God's Good News of God's Grace (Rom10:16b; Mark1:15; Acts15:7) / We obey God's Good News of God's Grace (Rom10:16a; 2Thes1:8; 1Pet4:17).
God's Grace, our Salvation, our Faith / our Obedience are inseparable.
Correction: If we're believing, then we're obeying and if we're obeying, then we're believing.
You will know, God himself will tell you in your Soul
Oh, wait not heard yet?
Believe, receive and see
Col 1 especially 21-23, John 19:30 it is finished, what is finished
The Law of Moses is finished Heb. 7:11-12
Son took over in his resurrection for us to be new in God Father's spirit and truth
he has the keys Revelation 1 confirms that
Then once see as you will know from God not me or anyone else, you will know from within as Father steps in with risen Son in Spirit and Truth, one then will love all is the call, that you will see and agree with, over the few you only loved by their works in your first birth, you only loved those that loved you back, Now you agreeingly love your enemies too, in truth, love and mercy too. The same as Son did going to that cross to first take away Sin, then risen where new life in God Father's Spirit and Truth is given. There is no more work to get in. That part is done for us to be new by belief in the risen Life of Jesus, in love and mercy to all, at least me this I now see after a long walk off a short pier daily, when was under Law that got me upset constantly, not ever being good enough. God took that upon self in Son for us to be imputed new life in Spirit and truth as in John 4:23-24 tells me
God just loves you too
Look at it from this viewpoint. Jesus offered you salvation through the Holy Spirit of God. You accepted that gift and were filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus said to fulfill the Great Commission + whatever we do from (heal, speaking in tongues, etc) we are to do in the name of Yeshua.
So my point is this. If you are going to accept the gift of salvation and be saved, you should then obey the God that saved you by doing what He preached and commanded.
“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
Ephesians 4:21-24 KJV
Note this part
“and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; “
how could someone’s mind and thinking be changed ?
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
How could believing the gospel change our thinking about God ? Ourselves ? Life ? If we listen to what Jesus is saying we hear new things to believe about God , oureelves , life in this world and life after it ect as we begin to hear and believe the gospel our mind begins to be changed from deception to truth
What’s my relationship with God as a believer in Jesus ?
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Matthew 23:9 KJV
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 5:16
“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
Mark 11:25
The gospel is the right information about God and mankind and our relationship between the two . It teaches us about everything we need to lnow and believe but the idea is
Hearing the gospel is the thing that begins to give us the right information about God , mankind , salvation ect as we grow in the gospel so does our capacity to obey the things we are beginning to learn and have written on our mind and heart ( the things jesus taught in the gospel were all called to hear and believe )
We have to be willing to learn from jesus and let ourselves be wrong or we’ll never come to repentance or obedience or the good fruits offered in the gospel for those who believe
Our minds are wrong until we hear the gospel and begin to let it on to our beliefs
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
Romans 12:1-2
“and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”
Colossians 3:10 KJV
remember why mankind fell tbey partook of the forbidden knowledge of good and evil
man is redeemed by the true knowledge of God in the gospel it’s why we have to hear and believe the gospel to be saved it renews our thinking which our mind and heart is the issue that’s corrupted and leads us to sin
ago become a disciple of Jesus will lead to repentance and righteousness because it will change us at our core beliefs
That is the thing it works in reverse. obeidence does not grant one access to heaven if this was so then we would still be under the law obedience is a result of entrance to heaven our entrance being Jesus Christ not our own doing or works lest anyone should boast
works do not save us but being saved produces works obedience does not let us in heaven but because we are allowed in heaven we want to be obedient it is a grattitude kind of thing not a reward kind of thing
The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and the Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for him self a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus finished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20). Following the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law is not doing something other than walking in obedience to it. The way to believe in God's word made flesh is not by rejecting God's word. Obedience to the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with trying to be good enough. Indeed, God loves us, which is why He gave us His gift of the Mosaic Law.
Jesus himself said he came to not destroy the law but to fulfill it however that was his role if ours is to obey it what sets that apart from before Christ gave his life?
I remember a time when hyper grace was a major issue around here the idea being that grace is so abundant that even if we screw up and fail to obey correctly we can rest in his love and grace regardless of our failings, on the other hand that was seen as an excuse to sin by others, where would you say you stand on God's grace? what is your understanding of the law and grace?
In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so our obedience is not required in order to earn our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven as the result, but rather it is required because that is the way to know Jesus. Or in other words, obeying God's word is the way to know God's word made flesh.
God is still sovereign, so we still under His law and are obligated to obey it. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in. John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under it. Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks on favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin.
"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, which again refers to correctly obeying it, moreover, it refers to something that countless people have done. In Hebrews 11, it lists examples of people who had saving faith who had never read the NT, so that is not a requirement for salvation. People before the cross had faith in the promised redeemer just as we do.
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3, Luke 10:25-28).
In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith.
In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith.
In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being made to be a doer of good works in obedience to God's law is nevertheless a central part of God's gift of salvation.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.
Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so him graciously teaching us to be a doer of God's law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.
So it stand to reason then that the law is not gone yet so many teach that the law is a curse and only exists to show how set apart we are from God yet David boasted of his law Jesus taught the law and fulfilled it yet even back then the law was a heavy burden but I have not seen this to be the case honestly I once took a challenge to try my best to obey the law for a whole month to see if it would change anything and it was a game changer
I think you have a good understanding of the law and grace my questioning was more for the benefit of others
The Hebrew word "yada" refers to an intimate relationship/knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave brith to Cain. The Bible begins and ends with the Tree of Life in the Garden and everything in between is about how to walk in God's way, which is the narrow way back to the Tree of Life (Matthew 7:14), or in other words, the goal everything in the Bible is to teach us to know God and Jesus, which again is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). God's way is the way to know (yada) Him by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. So the law was not given to show how set a[art we are from God, but as a gift to teach us how to have an intimate relationship with Him. The only way to do away with instructions for how to be in God's likeness by being a doer of HIs character traits would be by first doing away with God.
In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! In Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how we know how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and there are many other verses that repeatedly say that God's law a blessing and that it is only a curse for those who do not rely on it.
In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In other words, the way to love God is by being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice, and the way to love holiness is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, which is why the Bible repeatedly states that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments. Indeed, that is a game changer.
J
JS1789
Guest
Obedience to God is founded in grace (Titus 2:11-12) and love (2 Cor. 5:14ff). The same grace that saved us (Eph. 2:8) is also the same grace that motivates, instructs, and warns us not to continue in sin (Rom. 6:1, 12-18ff). Grace has the answers for salvation when one ask what must we/I do? What do you want me to do? (Acts 2:37-28; Acts 16:30ff; Acts 9:6). Grace tells us what we must do to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21). Jesus brought us salvation. On the cross, He died for all men (2 Cor. 5:15), and He brought us a soul saving message to all through His sacrifice, His words, His apostles and disciples. All of that is grace and is how His grace that has brought salvation has appeared to all men. In having mercy upon us, He saved us by His grace which instructs us, not only how to be saved, but also how to live such a life that we can walk worthy of our calling as a Christian to glorify God (Ti. 3:5, Ti. 2:11; Eph. 2:8, 4:1; 1 Cor. 6:20).
It’s not our works of righteousness that saves us (Titus 3:5). It’s the righteousness commandments/works of God that do (Ps. 119:172, Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, Acts 17:30, Rom. 10:9-10, Acts 2:21, Col. 2:12, Acts 2:38, Jms 2:24). It is faith in Christ that does by the power of the gospel (Rom. 3:22, Phil. 3:9, Rom. 1:16).
God's grace is what helps me overcome my sin, not why I sin. Obedience to God is living by faith that works by love, as we continue to look to the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus (Gal. 5:6; Heb. 12:2). By His grace, we receive what is promised, which we do not deserve: Eternal life (1 Jn 2:25).
The works of Christ that save us is His death, burial, resurrection, and what He has commanded us to do—which those are God given commandments to be saved by His grace. The term “works” is sometimes the equivalent of “obedience.” Elsewhere Jesus promised victory to those who “keep my works,” i.e., the works (commands) prescribed by him (Rev. 2:26)
His grace instructs us (Titus 2:11-12).
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have access by faith into this grace…
Gal. 3:24 says justified by faith
How does get into this grace in Romans 5:2? They have to be justified by faith. But how is one be justified by faith? One must be baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27), and that is where we have access by faith into this grace (Rom. 5:2).
Let us “continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43) by allowing the grace-given instructions of Christ to teach us where we are living the life that is “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age” (Titus 2:11). God’s revealed will was given to us by Jesus. By grace, He instructs us to do the Father’s will (Titus 2:11-12; Mt. 7:21). Meeting the conditions of the One who first offers the commands and bestows the grace is not earning anything. It’s simply desiring His will over your own.
Although we are to obey, even when we try to obey, we will never obey perfectly like Jesus did, and that is why even our obedience in of itself alone will not and cannot get us to heaven. That is why anybody that goes to heaven is due to God‘s grace and mercy. While we are to obey, we are not to trust our obedience to save us. We are to trust Jesus to save us. If we trust our obedience to save us we are trusting ourselves, and we are going to get let down every single time, but when we trust Jesus, we will not get let down.