Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[OneFaith]

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. As you pointed out, without goal or effort to stop. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Yes, agreed, willful sin is continuous (living in sin instead of just visiting sin) and any sin is not accidental. All sin leads us to the verdict: guilty (unless covered by Christ's blood). But those who make it their goal to sin, in order to receive pleasure, are using Christ's blood as a license to sin. Therefore, because of their intention, Christ's blood no longer covers them until they repent of living in sin and come back to God.

"But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."

 

[justpassinthrough]

No faith... is unbelief.

We can deny Him in unbelief(no faith) He cannot deny his own self as the author and finisher of His own works of faith that he works in us . Remember he who is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases performs that which he appoints to us(imputed righteousness) He alone makes our hearts soft.

2 Timothy 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

So then you agree that OSAS is a false doctrine?




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

That's contradictory man... you cannot depart from the faith. If you can, then Christ is made a liar. He even went on to say:

• speaking lies in hypocrisy,

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2


Thanks for demonstrating an example of exactly what Paul, through the Spirit is warning us about.


You are saying the Holy Spirit is a liar because Jesus can't be a liar.




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

That is what it is all about.

Those who depart from the faith are condemned. Obviously at some stage, they did believe, but because they are gone from the Lord they are condemned, and that is where OSAS is wrong.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Which is why we see "evil heart of unbelief". This is the heart of those who don't have a harvest.

This evil heart of unbelief refers to those who once were "in Christ", but departed from Him.


The unbelieving Jews persecuted the believers in Messiah, pressuring them to turn back to Judaism by trying to convince the believing Jews, Jesus was a false prophet.


In order to do this, they were to renounce Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and turn away or depart from Him.


This is exactly what Jesus warned His diciples of in His teaching of the Sower.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Fall away is the same Greek word, that is rendered "depart from" in Hebrews 3:12, which is why the word "unbelief" belief is used.


These are those who under persecution, depart from Him, and can not be brought back to repentance, in which they have no other sacrifice for sins, and only have a fearful expectation of the Judgement to come.


Luke 8: 13 refers to departing from the faith during persecution.


Matthew says it this way -

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

• but endures only for a while.
• Luke says - who believe for a while

Jesus says those who endure to the end will be saved. The context is during persecution, which is the same context.



9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-13

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

JPT

 

[Epiales]

E......,

I believe that is an unfair conclusion;

When I hit my index finger with a hammer and an immediate four letter stinky word is uttered ...is not a want thing. It is a out of control reaction to ...in this case pain.....not want.

Even then, that four letter word has been in your heart or you wouldn't of said it?

 

[Epiales]

Show us in the text where Paul said believers fully came to the place in which they went back to the law for justification and he has no further confidence in them, in the Lord that they will have no other mind and they "lost their salvation."

He can't find it and nobody else can. When it says to the CHURCH of or to the BELIEVERS, they stretch that to 'INCLUDE" saved people. They have no argument to stand on.

 

[Epiales]

E......,

I believe that is an unfair conclusion;

When I hit my index finger with a hammer and an immediate four letter stinky word is uttered ...is not a want thing. It is a out of control reaction to ...in this case pain.....not want.

And if that four letter word is in your heart already, and you know the scripture that says to shun profane and vain babbling's as they will increase to more ungodliness, then you knew you shouldn't of said that four letter word, but yet it came out of your mouth?

 

[Ralph-]

Show us in the text where Paul said believers fully came to the place in which they went back to the law for justification and he has no further confidence in them, in the Lord that they will have no other mind and they "lost their salvation."

They will not be saved when Jesus comes back if they do not come back to Jesus. Paul plainly explained to them that slaves are not heirs along with the sons. He's trying to get them to come back to the gospel he preached to them.

If God had already turned them over to the slavery to which they have returned Paul would not be trying to get them back. At the time of writing there's still time for them to repent. But if they willingly persist in their sin they will be guilty of trampling on the blood of the covenant that sanctified them and they will have nothing left to look forward to but the wrath of God reserved for his enemies (Hebrews 10:26-29). God will in fact do this. He said he would.

 

[Epiales]

This evil heart of unbelief refers to those who once were "in Christ", but departed from Him.

Really? Unbelief means just that. They never believed. Again, it's like you BELIEVING in aliens but then they prove there aren't any. Then you say, Oh, I guess they don't exist. You never had a deep rooted FAITH in your beleif that they even existed, or else you would have not stopped believing. You would have said, "I don't care what you say, THEY DO EXIST"... That is believe and that is faith. These people never had that type of faith or belief.

The unbelieving Jews persecuted the believers in Messiah, pressuring them to turn back to Judaism by trying to convince the believing Jews, Jesus was a false prophet.

In order to do this, they were to renounce Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and turn away or depart from Him.

Yup, they didn't accept Christ, so they were trying to sway those that did to go back to the laws.

This is exactly what Jesus warned His diciples of in His teaching of the Sower.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Fall away is the same Greek word, that is rendered "depart from" in Hebrews 3:12, which is why the word "unbelief" belief is used.

These are those who under persecution, depart from Him, and can not be brought back to repentance, in which they have no other sacrifice for sins, and only have a fearful expectation of the Judgement to come.

Yup, keyword again, "unbelief".. "fall away"... They heard the word, but because the rocks are there, no root can grow. Without root, what happens? So they BELIEVE the words spoken to them, but they did not take it to HEART.... b/c if they had, they would have grown ROOTS.. but they can't b/c it's rocky and roots can't grow in rocks. Again, simple. They were never saved.

Luke 8: 13 refers to departing from the faith during persecution.

Matthew says it this way -

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

• but endures only for a while.
• Luke says - who believe for a while

Yea, endures for a little while... beleives for a little while. When you all going to understand that BELIEVE doesn't mean SALVATION?

If you want to live in fear of losing salvation or want to throw it away.. YAY FOR YOU, just don't try and force others to accept your view on throwing away salvation. This is what the Pharisees and religious Jews were doing. Believing in Eternal Security is scriptural and the "GOOD NEWS"... teaching otherwise is condemnation.

 

[Ralph-]

He can't find it and nobody else can. When it says to the CHURCH of or to the BELIEVERS, they stretch that to 'INCLUDE" saved people. They have no argument to stand on.

The passage below is so plainly and clearly written to and about the saved people in the Galatian church it's amazing that you would even dare entertain the argument that it isn't:

"1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness."-Galatians 5:1-5

 

[PennEd]

Yes, the new birth is essential. However, the ones that I am talking about are those who believe a person who has been born from above, but doesn't follow on to know the lord and do his will, will be saved simply because he is born again. That IMO is the new gnosticism.

What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.

Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.

If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.

It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.

So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.

 

[Epiales]

The passage below is so plainly and clearly written to and about the saved people in the Galatian church it's amazing that you would even dare entertain the argument that it isn't:

"1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness."-Galatians 5:1-5

And again, no it isn't. Paul is talking to the CHURCH and he's just stating what Christ has done for them, and if they serve the law they won't have grace. He's directing this to EVERYONE in the church in general. Not to the saved.

I'm preaching, and I am up there telling people. We must follow the Lord or we will be damned. We must not go after the law or we will fall from the grace that God has given us. We cannot serve two masters, either we love one and hate the other or visa versa. Am I talking to the SAVED PEOPLE? What's so difficult to see here? I've preached behind the pulpit like this, and I never referred to one saved person. A saved person doesn't fall from grace or go back to the law. SMH!

 

[Ralph-]

They heard the word, but because the rocks are there, no root can grow. Without root, what happens? So they BELIEVE the words spoken to them, but they did not take it to HEART.... b/c if they had, they would have grown ROOTS.. but they can't b/c it's rocky and roots can't grow in rocks.

How does a plant spring up without any roots?

"5“Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up "-Matthew 13:5

Of course the word had root in the 2nd type of soil. Jesus said the problem was the word did not have DEEP root because of the type of soil it was.

Those are the kinds of believers that can fall away--weak believers in whom the word is planted but is not planted very deeply. The word by which they were saved can be easily ripped from their hearts by trials and tribulations and the loves of this world.

If you want to live in fear of losing salvation or want to throw it away.. YAY FOR YOU

Who's living in fear? As long as you are believing in Christ you are secure in Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.

Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.

If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.

It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.

So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.

People who believe but who don't move on the mature soil and fruit bearing of the 4th type of soil are the ones who are in danger of falling away. The 4th type of soil believer is the believer who won't fall away. He knows God intimately and the word is firmly rooted in the soil of his heart. He is the one who perseveres in the faith to the very end and is saved w hen Jesus comes back.

That's why we should be encouraging believers to move on to maturity, not stunt their growth with the false security of a 'once saved always saved' message that will probably leave them languishing in type #2 or #3 soil and open to falling away. The particularly disturbing part about embracing 'once saved always saved' doctrine being they won't realize they have fallen away and are not ready to meet Christ at his return. Thus their surprise, and their plea for him to remember the abundance of their service in the church despite the disobedience of their personal lives.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Really? Unbelief means just that. They never believed.

No sir.

You are denying the simple and plain text of the scripture.

It plainly does not say "never believed".


Jesus said they "believed" for a while.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Your claim is they were saved "THE MOMENT THEY BELIEVED"


If they were saved "THE MOMENT THEY BELIEVED" then these who believed [and are saved] for a while, were saved "THE MOMENT THEY BELIEVED".


Believe for a while = Saved for a while.



JPT

 

[Epiales]

How does a plant spring up without any roots?

"5“Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up "-Matthew 13:5

Of course the word had root in the 2nd type of soil. Jesus said the problem was the word did not have DEEP root because of the type of soil it was.

Those are the kinds of believers that can fall away--weak believers in whom the word is planted but is not planted very deeply. The word by which they were saved can be easily ripped from their hearts by trials and tribulations and the loves of this world.

Who's living in fear? As long as you are believing in Christ you are secure in Christ.

Yeah, and the point is, is that the 'roots' couldn't grow because of the rocks.

And most anyone that believes they can lose it or throw it away, will at some point in life fear. If you don't, great, but what you teach can produce fear in a new believers heart; someone not grounded in the Word... you know... someone that might be searching the scriptures and tryin to believe the words, but yet for a little while? And then they come here and see all this losing grace and throwing it away. Why would they even bother getting a deep rooted faith? They might be in the rocks and trying to get to grace, but why even bother then? I mean, if we can somehow sin our way out of grace, or even turn our back on it, because we are carnal and fleshly... then why even try? I don't think people even realize the implications of what they actually say here.

But whatever! Praise God for the people here that stand up for the security that we have in Christ, and show forth scriptures to prove that God will NEVER leave them nor FORSAKE them. I pray the Lord that these people searching for the truth see past the nonsense that's being taught, and realize God is more powerful than we are, and He is able to keep us to the end. Not in and of ourselves, but through HIS faithfulness. Thank you Yeshua HaMaschioch, Jesus Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

Yeah, and the point is, is that the 'roots' couldn't grow because of the rocks.

It DOES grow. READ THE PARABLE.

What it does not do is endure.

And most anyone that believes they can lose it or throw it away, will at some point in life fear.

We are to fear slipping into unbelief. Are you a preacher? If so, why do you not know about Romans warning us to not be conceited but fear being removed from the vine because of unbelief?

"20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. "-Romans 11:20-21

I mean, if we can somehow sin our way out of grace, or even turn our back on it, because we are carnal and fleshly... then why even try?

The only time sin that can cause you to forfeit your salvation is if you go back to UNBELIEF and away from Christ, like the Galatians did.

For the BELIEVER who continues to abide in the word each and every sin is covered by the blood of Christ. It is the person who has returned to unbelief and who no longer abides in the word who will no longer have the blood of Christ ministering on his behalf in heaven. He is the one who loses his salvation because of sin. But the believer, no, he can not lose his salvation because of sinning in weakness and ignorance. Only a willful return to the world in unbelief can cause the (ex) believer to lose his salvation.

But whatever! Praise God for the people here that stand up for the security that we have in Christ, and show forth scriptures to prove that God will NEVER leave them nor FORSAKE them. I pray the Lord that these people searching for the truth see past the nonsense that's being taught, and realize God is more powerful than we are, and He is able to keep us to the end. Not in and of ourselves, but through HIS faithfulness. Thank you Yeshua HaMaschioch, Jesus Christ.

Just keep believing, people. That's how you have all the promises of God applied to you--through faith. If you go back to unbelief you will lose all the promises of God and they will no longer apply to you. You will cease to be an heir. Just as Paul warned the Galatians who were going back to the law and away from faith in Christ for justification.

 

[Epiales]

People who believe but who don't move on the mature soil and fruit bearing of the 4th type of soil are the ones who are in danger of falling away. The 4th type of soil believer is the believer who won't fall away. He knows God intimately and the word is firmly rooted in the soil of his heart. He is the one who perseveres in the faith to the very end and is saved w hen Jesus comes back.

That's why we should be encouraging believers to move on to maturity, not stunt their growth with the false security of a 'once saved always saved' message that will probably leave them languishing in type #2 or #3 soil and open to falling away. The particularly disturbing part about embracing 'once saved always saved' doctrine being they won't realize they have fallen away and are not ready to meet Christ at his return. Thus their surprise, and their plea for him to remember the abundance of their service in the church despite the disobedience of their personal lives.

The only soil that produced a SAVING FAITH was the last one. You're unable to ever show scripturally otherwise. You may think you can, but impossible. Scripture no where shows that a saved person has ever lost it. If anything it proves you can't. You guys deny the 100's of scriptures that speak of it as being eternal. What does eternal mean? I mean really? Eternal means just that. It's not eternal if you can lose it or throw it away. But yet, despite the MANY more scriptures that show the eternal security, you gotta pick and choose the VERY FEW that 'appear' a Christian can lose it. Just because your carnal mind can't comprehend the awesomeness of our Lord And Savior, you gotta make stuff up so that your carnal mind can understand it in your way of thinking. That is carnality and produces death. I haven't seen one scripture, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God throws ANYONE away. If He didn't throw King Saul away and send him to hell, then he's sure not going to send someone to hell or turn their backs on them after His only SON went to the cross and was beaten, mocked, spat on, and CRUCIFIED. How easily do some of you trample the blood of Christ underfoot and say that His blood wasn't enough to save and to keep saved.

This is why Christ was so against the Pharisees and Lawyers.

Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

The scribes and Pharisees, through their false doctrine and hypocritical lives, keep others from entering the kingdom of God. That is, they acted as the human instruments to block the true way to heaven, and this is exactly what is happening when someone bases their salvation on works and teaches the same; hindering someone from obtaining the “key of knowledge’, thus keeping them from entering into eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The person believing this does not enter themselves, as well as the others they have falsely taught, thus why the Word says, “And them that were entering in you hindered”. It’s false teachers that will try and make the gold holier than the temple, or more important than the temple. It’s false teachers that want to sanctify themselves, the lesser, rather than accepting Christ’s sanctification, the better.

Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

So they teach others that they too much sanctify themselves instead of accepting what Christ accomplished on the cross. This is a hindrance and Christ said “Who unto you”. He called them blind guides. When you have the blind leading the blind, then all you’ll produce are more blind people who will teach the same.

Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

 

[Epiales]

No sir.

You are denying the simple and plain text of the scripture.

It plainly does not say "never believed".

Jesus said they "believed" for a while.

JPT

And again, since we are going in circles. When does believe always mean they are saved? AGAIN, satan believe, but is HE SAVED? Your logic contradicts 95% of the bible.