Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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In the New Covenant, our salvation is not guaranteed
If people have escaped from the corrupting forces of the world through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are again caught and conquered by them, such people are in worse condition at the end than they were at the beginning. (2Pe 2:20)
Their end will be worse than their beginning
It would have been much better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than to know it and then turn away from the sacred command that was given them. (2Pe 2:21)
We can revert back to our sinful condition
What happened to them shows that the proverbs are true: "A dog goes back to what it has vomited" and "A pig that has been washed goes back to roll in the mud." (2Pe 2:22)
If people have escaped from the corrupting forces of the world through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are again caught and conquered by them, such people are in worse condition at the end than they were at the beginning. (2Pe 2:20)
Their end will be worse than their beginning
It would have been much better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than to know it and then turn away from the sacred command that was given them. (2Pe 2:21)
We can revert back to our sinful condition
What happened to them shows that the proverbs are true: "A dog goes back to what it has vomited" and "A pig that has been washed goes back to roll in the mud." (2Pe 2:22)
Well, if you read the first scripture you can understand it more clearly. You didn't highlight through their KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge doesn't mean they got saved now does it? Again, satan knows of God and Christ, but he ain't saved now is he? Verse two.. for them never to have "KNOWN" the way... hmmmm... Again, head knowledge, not heart knowledge of a saving faith.
Read the Word guys, not just what you wanna pick and choose from it. God bless you!
Read the Word guys, not just what you wanna pick and choose from it. God bless you!
Beware of the lying spirit.
A lying spirit can not understand the truth. (John 8:43-45) (Yes.)
A lying spirit denies the deity of Jesus Christ (that He is God). (1 John 2:22)
A lying spirit stands with a majority opinion (many times). (2 Chronicles 18:21a) (Yes.)
A lying spirit practices unrighteousness. (1 John 3:7-8)
A lying spirit doesn’t listen to believers. (1 John 4:5-6) (Yes.)
A lying spirit speaks words that fail to come to pass. (2 Chronicles 18:27)
A lying spirit entices men to destruction. (2 Chronicles 18:19-21)
A lying spirit can not understand the truth. (John 8:43-45) (Yes.)
A lying spirit denies the deity of Jesus Christ (that He is God). (1 John 2:22)
A lying spirit stands with a majority opinion (many times). (2 Chronicles 18:21a) (Yes.)
A lying spirit practices unrighteousness. (1 John 3:7-8)
A lying spirit doesn’t listen to believers. (1 John 4:5-6) (Yes.)
A lying spirit speaks words that fail to come to pass. (2 Chronicles 18:27)
A lying spirit entices men to destruction. (2 Chronicles 18:19-21)
The verse in question:
If people have escaped from the corrupting forces of the world through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are again caught and conquered by them, such people are in worse condition at the end than they were at the beginning. (2Pe 2:20)
Yes they were saved because they escaped from the corrupting forces of the world, AND, they knew our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who is, THE SAVIOUR.
Remember: A lying spirit can not understand the truth. (John 8:43-45)
My spirit recognises your spirit.
If people have escaped from the corrupting forces of the world through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are again caught and conquered by them, such people are in worse condition at the end than they were at the beginning. (2Pe 2:20)
Yes they were saved because they escaped from the corrupting forces of the world, AND, they knew our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who is, THE SAVIOUR.
Remember: A lying spirit can not understand the truth. (John 8:43-45)
My spirit recognises your spirit.
Heh again.... Obedience to God's Word, whether one is saved or not, naturally can protect you from the corrupting forces of the world, if you have a KNOWLEDGE of the Word and apply that to your life. Again, nowhere does this imply a saved person, but a person with knowledge.
You can be a 'good' person with or without the knowledge of Christ, as still escape some of the corrupting forces of the world. They can KNOW of THE Lord and Savior all they want. Again, the devil knows, but he's not saved. Still focusing on single pick and choose words in scripture instead of reading it in its entirety. If you keep doing this, your understanding will always be carnal.
You can be a 'good' person with or without the knowledge of Christ, as still escape some of the corrupting forces of the world. They can KNOW of THE Lord and Savior all they want. Again, the devil knows, but he's not saved. Still focusing on single pick and choose words in scripture instead of reading it in its entirety. If you keep doing this, your understanding will always be carnal.
And how am I wrong about knowledge? You know it's wrong to steal? You know it's wrong to commit adultery? Do you have to be saved to know that? So, guess what? Having this knowledge and abiding by it, you have escaped some the corrupting forces of the world. And ya know? You don't even know Christ when ya do this... So yeah, knowing OF the Word and knowing OF Christ, doesn't make you saved; it means you just know the principles in the Word are good. I've heard many tell me that they don't believe in the Bible, but they think it's a good model for how one should live. And really, if they live by it, they will do go to do so, but it won't do any good in the end; when they face God.
So yeah, scriptures you posted are easily explained.
So yeah, scriptures you posted are easily explained.
Really? Shame shame... putting a word in there that isn't now? Where does it say the word SAVING knowledge in there. Let me read it again to make sure I read you right....
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hmmm... I see no word saved, salvation, used to be saved, saving knowledge or anything of the like. Where did you pull that from? This is what I see.
They had knowledge of the Lord
They've known the way of righteousness
They turned from commandments given them
Hmm... Still nothing about salvation. What I read clearly in scripture is what I said in the other posts. These people know the Word and of Jesus, and they even thought (knowing) that it was good to follow the scripture. It's a good moral standard for them to follow. But then they are like...uh... Why am I even following this word? I don't even believe in this man named Jesus. So they go back to their vomit. The Word of God was delivered to them, but they didn't "ACCEPT" it by faith, into their hearts.
See, these know of the word and know of Jesus, but they decide to leave it, never accepting it. And, the one who rejects God's Righteousness, or the way of Righteousness (The Gospel), then they are worse off than the person who has never heard the Gospel. These people that know it and then reject it, have hardened their hearts to what could have saved them. This is why it states "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
We should never try and use scripture AGAINST scripture. Hebrews, Revelation, 2 Peter, Galatians.. all those that should solidify our faith, but not to contradict all the 100's if not a 1,000 or more verses on the eternal part of our salvation, that says God's elect WILL overcome and endure to the end.
See these scriptures everyone lists about losing our salvation all end up with the same scenario. They are not SAVED people. And it can all be pointed back to:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Simple truth! Sorry some cannot see this revelation, but I will continue to share the "Gospel" of Christ and His "Eternal" saving grace to the believer, in hopes that even one person shall finally understand our freedom in Christ. I may never know who it might touch, as many read but never comment. Praise God for His truth and Holy Spirit that has sealed us forever and ever. AMEN
Although salvation is not by our works, the way that we live our lives should be the result of that salvation. Praise God! Just remember, in the end, there is hope and assurance for the child of God. God is faithful and just to complete that work in us. Thank God for HIS faithfulness and not ours. YAY YESHUA
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Hmmm... I see no word saved, salvation, used to be saved, saving knowledge or anything of the like. Where did you pull that from? This is what I see.
They had knowledge of the Lord
They've known the way of righteousness
They turned from commandments given them
Hmm... Still nothing about salvation. What I read clearly in scripture is what I said in the other posts. These people know the Word and of Jesus, and they even thought (knowing) that it was good to follow the scripture. It's a good moral standard for them to follow. But then they are like...uh... Why am I even following this word? I don't even believe in this man named Jesus. So they go back to their vomit. The Word of God was delivered to them, but they didn't "ACCEPT" it by faith, into their hearts.
See, these know of the word and know of Jesus, but they decide to leave it, never accepting it. And, the one who rejects God's Righteousness, or the way of Righteousness (The Gospel), then they are worse off than the person who has never heard the Gospel. These people that know it and then reject it, have hardened their hearts to what could have saved them. This is why it states "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
We should never try and use scripture AGAINST scripture. Hebrews, Revelation, 2 Peter, Galatians.. all those that should solidify our faith, but not to contradict all the 100's if not a 1,000 or more verses on the eternal part of our salvation, that says God's elect WILL overcome and endure to the end.
See these scriptures everyone lists about losing our salvation all end up with the same scenario. They are not SAVED people. And it can all be pointed back to:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Simple truth! Sorry some cannot see this revelation, but I will continue to share the "Gospel" of Christ and His "Eternal" saving grace to the believer, in hopes that even one person shall finally understand our freedom in Christ. I may never know who it might touch, as many read but never comment. Praise God for His truth and Holy Spirit that has sealed us forever and ever. AMEN
Although salvation is not by our works, the way that we live our lives should be the result of that salvation. Praise God! Just remember, in the end, there is hope and assurance for the child of God. God is faithful and just to complete that work in us. Thank God for HIS faithfulness and not ours. YAY YESHUA
Scripture is clear that OUR FAITH is how we overcome the world. Faith alone is the victory. Faith alone pleases God. That's why it's eternally secure. Those who endure are the ones who truly believe. Several times we are told this in Scripture. Those who leave were never with us, some fall away because they reveal themselves. This isn't about trying to keep ourselves saved, it's about self-examination to ensure we are truly saved.
2 Co 3:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
The way we know we are truly saved is by knowing Christ is in us. Why is this? Because He is eternal life. This unity is key to understanding the foundations of Scripture. Christ came so we wouldn't perish apart from Him, but have eternal life with Him.
If we are still waiting for eternal life a few things can not be true: we haven't died to the old man, we haven't been reborn in Christ, we are not the temple of the living God, and our faith has not overcome the world. And if this is the case, we aren't truly saved at all.
But here's the big twist, it's not simply about being saved, it's about knowing God. It's always been about knowing and seeking God. Man is built with big holes that can only be filled with God. Depending on each man's unique design is who God is for each man. Everything man seeks is found in Him. He is the Truth, He is the Way, and He is the Life. Among many other things.
As we become united to Him we are the Body of Christ on the Earth. And our lives are the appeal of God to the world to be RECONCILED to Him. But if we haven't accepted we have eternal life, and are joined to Him, how can we truly invite the world to be reconciled themselves? But Christ (God in the flesh) became sin for our us, so we could be His righteousness.
Righteousness is a really big deal for us to comprehend as well. But here's the first step to understand what righteousness is and why it's the ministry of the Holy Spirit for the believer.
1 Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
We are a new creation, notice Scripture doesn't say new creations. Why? Because we have ALL become one spirit with Him. This is the function of dying to ourselves (apart from Him) and being reborn in Him (reconciled to Him). This is why we are the Body of Christ. United with Him and united with each other.
John 17:11- And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Even identifying us with Him as no longer being OF the world.
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
As you can see these are not metaphorical, but very real realities. And these realities are for those who are in Christ by faith. Who have died to separation to God and are now reborn in Christ.
20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
And that is the ministry of reconciliation and "new creation" reality that we enter into through faith.
So that Paul can say this about this now:
Ephesians 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
2 Co 3:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
The way we know we are truly saved is by knowing Christ is in us. Why is this? Because He is eternal life. This unity is key to understanding the foundations of Scripture. Christ came so we wouldn't perish apart from Him, but have eternal life with Him.
If we are still waiting for eternal life a few things can not be true: we haven't died to the old man, we haven't been reborn in Christ, we are not the temple of the living God, and our faith has not overcome the world. And if this is the case, we aren't truly saved at all.
But here's the big twist, it's not simply about being saved, it's about knowing God. It's always been about knowing and seeking God. Man is built with big holes that can only be filled with God. Depending on each man's unique design is who God is for each man. Everything man seeks is found in Him. He is the Truth, He is the Way, and He is the Life. Among many other things.
As we become united to Him we are the Body of Christ on the Earth. And our lives are the appeal of God to the world to be RECONCILED to Him. But if we haven't accepted we have eternal life, and are joined to Him, how can we truly invite the world to be reconciled themselves? But Christ (God in the flesh) became sin for our us, so we could be His righteousness.
Righteousness is a really big deal for us to comprehend as well. But here's the first step to understand what righteousness is and why it's the ministry of the Holy Spirit for the believer.
1 Co 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
We are a new creation, notice Scripture doesn't say new creations. Why? Because we have ALL become one spirit with Him. This is the function of dying to ourselves (apart from Him) and being reborn in Him (reconciled to Him). This is why we are the Body of Christ. United with Him and united with each other.
John 17:11- And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Even identifying us with Him as no longer being OF the world.
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
As you can see these are not metaphorical, but very real realities. And these realities are for those who are in Christ by faith. Who have died to separation to God and are now reborn in Christ.
20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
And that is the ministry of reconciliation and "new creation" reality that we enter into through faith.
So that Paul can say this about this now:
Ephesians 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Since we haven't yet been clothed with immortality, which is eternal life realized, don't you think your comment above ties in with this:
In other words, we actually are waiting for the eternal life we have to be fully realized by patiently waiting in faith and examining ourselves with an honest heart and a lowly mind to ensure we are truly walking in the faith, and thereby inherit the eternal life we now have via promise.
In other words, we actually are waiting for the eternal life we have to be fully realized by patiently waiting in faith and examining ourselves with an honest heart and a lowly mind to ensure we are truly walking in the faith, and thereby inherit the eternal life we now have via promise.
I hear you, but I do think at one point we must accept we are united with Christ. He is the Vine and we are His branches apart from Him we can do nothing. It is faith that we are saved that manifests the fruit of being united to Him. Paul's motivation in saying examine yourself is to remind them that they are united to Christ.
Paul ends with this: 11Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you. 12Greet one another with a holy kiss. 13All the saints greet you.
It's very instructive that when Scripture reminds people that they are in Christ and to examine themselves - that the force of this is if so then to love one another and some examples on what that looks like. What they are almost always driving at with these types of statements in Scripture is our conduct with each other. We see this in James 2 which is the often quoted, we need works chapter, but these works are found in our love for each other. And why? Because Christ loved us. We are forgiven so thus we forgive others. What we receive freely we give freely.
Paul ends with this: 11Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you. 12Greet one another with a holy kiss. 13All the saints greet you.
It's very instructive that when Scripture reminds people that they are in Christ and to examine themselves - that the force of this is if so then to love one another and some examples on what that looks like. What they are almost always driving at with these types of statements in Scripture is our conduct with each other. We see this in James 2 which is the often quoted, we need works chapter, but these works are found in our love for each other. And why? Because Christ loved us. We are forgiven so thus we forgive others. What we receive freely we give freely.
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