Not sure you addressed me. But you should know that there is a difference between sinning and to live in sin.
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Not sure you addressed me. But you should know that there is a difference between sinning and to live in sin.
W
wwjd_kilden
Guest
I know there is, the main reason why I have a problem with this is:
I was raised in a christian home, and I guess i was doing fairly well until I was in my early twenties. I then had a couple of "wild years" before I got my senses back, so where does that leave my salvation? Am I saved no matter what I do? (or potentially the other way around, doomed no matter what I do?).
I was raised in a christian home, and I guess i was doing fairly well until I was in my early twenties. I then had a couple of "wild years" before I got my senses back, so where does that leave my salvation? Am I saved no matter what I do? (or potentially the other way around, doomed no matter what I do?).
The way I see it is that a saved person may for a time go off base, but God, whose mercy is greater than all sin, will eventually bring him back to the fold and restore his faith in full.
I believe in a sovereign God rather than human free will.
C
Closemyeyes2cU
Guest
Thats where I'm coming from. I grew up in a Christian home and without a doubt I was a true believer but in my teens and early 20's I completely turned on God. I would give you an eat crap look if you even tried to talk about God to me. Deep down inside I still believed but I did not have a living faith. I believed the same way that the devil and his demons believe. However, in my early-mid twenties I finally came back to my senses and just like the prodigal son, I came back home.....but also like the prodigal son, I was indeed a SON before I left. Thats why I believe true believers can and do depart from the faith.
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wwjd_kilden
Guest
Tribesman:
Fair enough.
I do believe He CAN do anything though, I just believe He let's us choose. I would actually feel it was much easier if I did believe he made the choices for me, then I wouldn't have to worry as much about me messing up
CloseMyEyes: Amen
Fair enough.
I do believe He CAN do anything though, I just believe He let's us choose. I would actually feel it was much easier if I did believe he made the choices for me, then I wouldn't have to worry as much about me messing up
CloseMyEyes: Amen
C
Crossfire
Guest
To say that these scriptures prove "Once Saved Always Saved" is very far fetched because if you were to read the chapters that each one of those verses appear, you will find that the vast majority of modern Christians, especially those who embrace OSAS, do not meet the scriptural standard that is presented in those chapters which insure such a salvation, especially Romans 8 & Ephesians 4.
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Crossfire
Guest
I encourage each of you to look up the Greek word for "stumbling". I think most will be shocked at what you find.
You know nothing as to the nature of God's mercy and the salvation of God that has been provided through the blood and through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The only standard that any sinner has to meet to receive God's provision for sin and to be reconciled to God is to believe by faith upon the Son (Jn 10:9-11). The work of God is to believe on Him whom God has sent (Jn 6:29, Jn 3:16) and he that believeth on the Son has life and he that believes not has not life (Jn 3:36, 5:24). Anything other than this is evil.
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Crossfire
Guest
All I was suggesting is that people study each verse within the context in which it was written, especially Romans 8 and Ephesians 4. Both of these chapters are clearly speaking of walking in spiritual maturity, where one's lifestyle matches up with the standard presented in the word of God. The same could be said of Jude 1:24. To claim that these chapters promote OSAS, a doctrine that suggests that one can be free from sin while enslaved by it, is a complete contradiction.
As for Red's assumptions about what I know or don't know, I will say this: "Out of the mouth the heart speaks." Your own words betray you my friend....
E
edward99
Guest
John 17
The High Priestly Prayer
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7“Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
The Disciples in the World
13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19“For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Their Future Glory
22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
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John 3:35
"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
Tribesman this is my point exactly. Just because one professes to be a follower, does not make one so.
Therefore, it isn't about this 'once saved, always saved', it's about the heart.
Does one live in a way that is most pleasing to God?
The way one lives matters more than whether or not they are automatically safe. If one lives correctly, the question becomes irrelevant.
Repentance is not always simply believing and praying to God, it is turning away from sin, and living one's life in love.
X
xino
Guest
my own view is:
once you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life
but eternal life to what? to heaven
Jesus said, on the last day he will raise the ones who believed in him,
also in Revelation, all the dead will rise and we will all be judged according to what we have done.
Obeying his words/teaching from the bible means you are a true disciple of Jesus.
Obeying his words will guarantee us to enter the Kingdom of God and be saved. Because it is via the bible that WE can enter heaven and be saved.
Jesus did say many will abandon their faith, betray family members and worship other idols during the last days. So how can they be saved if they believe in Jesus previously?
Or what about people who believe in his name but took the mark of the beast?
So once saved always saved DOES NOT apply to everyone but to some.
Who ever believes in my name will be saved- are for people who are in their death bed and they believe in him, will be saved. Or people who are in tribulation times or in hell.
But the only way to get to heaven is to read the bible and obey.
Jeremiah did say God has a plan for us all.
In the end, God chose us all and gave us to Jesus, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE PART OF JESUS (so that we may not boast). Father is the one that gave us to Jesus.
So when we believe in his name, WE ARE SAVED!!! Because even though we fall away, Father WILL work our hearts to put us back on track.
Jesus said all the sheeps whom father gave to him, he WILL not loose them.
"woe to you". Father has seen our plan and determine our future before we were born, he knows who he will use and who will bear fruit.
So woe to the people who believe in his name but betrays his brother and feeds him to the wolf because he will be judged in the last day.
Please read the Parable of the Sower (matthew 13), my favourite scripture. It describes people who hears the bible/seed/word and how they receive it.
There will be people who believe in his name, whom are joyful, but later fall away, they are the ones who grew on no soil and sun scorched them.
Don't forget, the Last will be First and First will be Last. Meaning people who were saved from 18years or at early age WILL be the last. And people who were saved 30years later, before their dying days or before the last minute WILL be the first!
Jesus gave a clear example of this, The Parable of the Workers in Vineyard.
You worked all day and expect to get better paid for your 10+hrs, but someone who worked on final hour and only did 1hr will be paid first and gets the same amount you will get.
Jesus also gave another example of the Parable of the Lost Son. How the father killed 10 fat bulls for his returning son but elder son was annoyed because no fat bull were killed for his obedience. But the father said all his things the elder son inherits. Meaning we who are last will get great rewards than the last who was just saved but Heaven will be praised for them cuz they are saved.
In the bible says if 1 person was saved, the Angels will sing of praises to the person who just repented than to a Christian who fell away and later repented.
So.....my point is this:
*Once saved always saved- are for people God gave us to Jesus, even though we fall back, Father will work our hearts, Jesus will guide us back to him because he WILL not loose us as his sheeps. Also for people dying on their last days or repented the last minute. We are the ones that bear fruit.
*Once saved NOT always saved- are for people whom God has seen their heart/pans/future and found out they will not bear much fruit. For people who are seed and fell on rocky sides, bad soils and no soils. Because they will believe in him but fall away and do something the Lord detest.
Early chapters of book of Psalms says God uses even people who do not believe in him. This is how God works, he knows all our hearts and plans before we were all born.
once you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life
but eternal life to what? to heaven
Jesus said, on the last day he will raise the ones who believed in him,
also in Revelation, all the dead will rise and we will all be judged according to what we have done.
Obeying his words/teaching from the bible means you are a true disciple of Jesus.
Obeying his words will guarantee us to enter the Kingdom of God and be saved. Because it is via the bible that WE can enter heaven and be saved.
Jesus did say many will abandon their faith, betray family members and worship other idols during the last days. So how can they be saved if they believe in Jesus previously?
Or what about people who believe in his name but took the mark of the beast?
So once saved always saved DOES NOT apply to everyone but to some.
Who ever believes in my name will be saved- are for people who are in their death bed and they believe in him, will be saved. Or people who are in tribulation times or in hell.
But the only way to get to heaven is to read the bible and obey.
Jeremiah did say God has a plan for us all.
In the end, God chose us all and gave us to Jesus, WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE PART OF JESUS (so that we may not boast). Father is the one that gave us to Jesus.
So when we believe in his name, WE ARE SAVED!!! Because even though we fall away, Father WILL work our hearts to put us back on track.
Jesus said all the sheeps whom father gave to him, he WILL not loose them.
"woe to you". Father has seen our plan and determine our future before we were born, he knows who he will use and who will bear fruit.
So woe to the people who believe in his name but betrays his brother and feeds him to the wolf because he will be judged in the last day.
Please read the Parable of the Sower (matthew 13), my favourite scripture. It describes people who hears the bible/seed/word and how they receive it.
There will be people who believe in his name, whom are joyful, but later fall away, they are the ones who grew on no soil and sun scorched them.
Don't forget, the Last will be First and First will be Last. Meaning people who were saved from 18years or at early age WILL be the last. And people who were saved 30years later, before their dying days or before the last minute WILL be the first!
Jesus gave a clear example of this, The Parable of the Workers in Vineyard.
You worked all day and expect to get better paid for your 10+hrs, but someone who worked on final hour and only did 1hr will be paid first and gets the same amount you will get.
Jesus also gave another example of the Parable of the Lost Son. How the father killed 10 fat bulls for his returning son but elder son was annoyed because no fat bull were killed for his obedience. But the father said all his things the elder son inherits. Meaning we who are last will get great rewards than the last who was just saved but Heaven will be praised for them cuz they are saved.
In the bible says if 1 person was saved, the Angels will sing of praises to the person who just repented than to a Christian who fell away and later repented.
So.....my point is this:
*Once saved always saved- are for people God gave us to Jesus, even though we fall back, Father will work our hearts, Jesus will guide us back to him because he WILL not loose us as his sheeps. Also for people dying on their last days or repented the last minute. We are the ones that bear fruit.
*Once saved NOT always saved- are for people whom God has seen their heart/pans/future and found out they will not bear much fruit. For people who are seed and fell on rocky sides, bad soils and no soils. Because they will believe in him but fall away and do something the Lord detest.
Early chapters of book of Psalms says God uses even people who do not believe in him. This is how God works, he knows all our hearts and plans before we were all born.
The last will be first, and the first last, isn't eever about age. The passage is about those people who humble themselves being called greater in heaven as they have sacrificed their reward on Earth. It says 'let him who wishes to be first, be a slave among you'.
It means that when you sacrifice yourself for others, you are last on Earth, but will be called first in Heaven.
It means that when you sacrifice yourself for others, you are last on Earth, but will be called first in Heaven.
X
xino
Guest
I didn't say it was all about age.
I even gave more example about it and you didn't understood them.
What I meant was...someone who was saved at the age of 34yrs will be last, someone who was saved at 46yr in his dying days will be first.
It is not about age but about someone who repented in his LAST minute. Much like people who repented on their death bed.
I gave an example of Parable of the Workers in Vineyard and Parable of the Lost Son.
It is clearly about someone who repents to the lord.
The followers who have been following Jesus since early age have greater reward already, reason why Angels do not sing praises or a dad killing fat bull for us. Because the person is honoured and chosen already.
C
chasten
Guest
Matthew 6:21 Not everyone that saith lord lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day lord Lord have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name done many wonderful works? And on that day I will proclaim to them, I never knew you, depart from me ye that work iniquity. Man shall not proceed by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out the mouth of god.
I do not beleive that simply stating that you believe saves you. I beleive you must walk with god, and know god, and that he will change you. YOU cannot do ANYTHING. You can quit drugs, quit smoking, quit drinking, and beleive me, those are all honorable feats, and it takes incredibly strong people to break any addiction. BUT only GOD can reverse the damage that this world has the potential of doing to you. Verily I say unto you if your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, ye shall in no likewise enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now the point is, you HAVE to WALK with your savior to acheive righteousness. As long as you hold to him, he WILL hold to you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. But you cannot turn from him, and expect that if you die before getting back on track your gonna be fine. We are called to love. In MY opinion, you dont turn away from people you love. Not if you really love them. Not your mother not family not friends not anyone. Why SHOULD Jesus be any different than them? He that loveth father or mother more than me cannot be my disciple. And the difference between you turning on him and him denying your name if you did ' die tomarrow' and him not excepting you into heaven is that HE never left YOU. Once your gone, you cant return. In no offense to anyone. BUT it seems to me like sometimes we just need to get our priorities figured out. Whats more important? Thats how I choose to interpret this question, and this is choice that I have made. I will drink the water of everlasting life.
I do not beleive that simply stating that you believe saves you. I beleive you must walk with god, and know god, and that he will change you. YOU cannot do ANYTHING. You can quit drugs, quit smoking, quit drinking, and beleive me, those are all honorable feats, and it takes incredibly strong people to break any addiction. BUT only GOD can reverse the damage that this world has the potential of doing to you. Verily I say unto you if your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, ye shall in no likewise enter into the kingdom of heaven. Now the point is, you HAVE to WALK with your savior to acheive righteousness. As long as you hold to him, he WILL hold to you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. But you cannot turn from him, and expect that if you die before getting back on track your gonna be fine. We are called to love. In MY opinion, you dont turn away from people you love. Not if you really love them. Not your mother not family not friends not anyone. Why SHOULD Jesus be any different than them? He that loveth father or mother more than me cannot be my disciple. And the difference between you turning on him and him denying your name if you did ' die tomarrow' and him not excepting you into heaven is that HE never left YOU. Once your gone, you cant return. In no offense to anyone. BUT it seems to me like sometimes we just need to get our priorities figured out. Whats more important? Thats how I choose to interpret this question, and this is choice that I have made. I will drink the water of everlasting life.
T
Tru2JHWH
Guest
I understand what you are saying but a lot of people on this thread who believes in OSAS thinks that we, who don't believe in OSAS, are trying to work for our salvation. That's not the case. We keep repeating ourselves over and over. There is a major difference when someone lives in sin and when someone sins from time to time. For example you are a Christian, you are saved and you have your salvation but somewhere down the road you are tempted and you start fornicating (having sex outside of marriage). This means you are living in sin. Which means if you don't STOP fornicating and repent of that sin then you could die in your sins and be cast into external damnation. That's all we are really trying to point out. There are not just a few people in this world thinking they are ok with God, but a whole lot them, who continues to live a sinful lifestyle. Most people thinks its ok to do what they want to because God is a just and merciful God. Which he is. But he also means what he says. Also people are saying that if you are living a sinful lifestyle then you was never saved in the first place. False! I know for a fact several years ago I was saved and I wasn't living in sin. I was doing everything I was suppose to be doing as a Christian. But I believe people underestimate the devil. Because he knows our weaknesses. And he knew mines. And before you knew it I was living in sin. I gave up my free gift of salvation and I started to play on the devil team. But through God's grace and mercy I repented of my sins and I'm a faithful Christian. Being a Christian may not always be easy and we will be tempted always to go against God's word but if we continue to abide in God's word and go to church and fellowship and etc. we will go to heaven. And the reward is so much worth it in the end. I'm pretty sure there are Christians who when they got baptized they remained faithful. But a lot of us have fallen but have eventually picked ourselves back up again, repented of sins, turned away from those sins, and are now obeying God's word.
T
Tru2JHWH
Guest
Where do you seek (your own) righteousness?
It is written:
So, do your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees? Do you even keep the sabbath? Do you eat only clean meats? Do you as a woman follow the rules that God gave through Moses particularly pertaining to women? If not, your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
For those of us who knows what righteousness/justification is we also know how we can have a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
L
LawofLove
Guest
In ref to the underlined partPsa_51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Why would David ask him not to take it from him? Even Soul had it took from him.
2:19 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This is talking about the false teachers and their following that went out from them. Never were with them in their heart from the start. Verse 22 says they denied Christ so they were the they where liars.This could be compared to A business man that only comes to your church to gain your trust in what he is selling but cares nothing for you. This is not the same as someone that really believes in Christ but in time of temptation falls away Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.