Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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This is just my opinion, and I am not a graduate of any clergy institution. The Bible is not such a large book. I was not raised with any religion, and my upbringing left me extremely angry. I still look back and wonder why I did not murder or go to prison, though I have no criminal record. Looking back God was guiding me and protecting me when I was not aware.

Because of a little pamphlet I had read, I sat down and read the entire Bible in two week ends. When I finished the OT, I was impressed with the mercy of God time and again. It made me wonder why people said that God was an angry, vengeful God. Had we read the same book? In the four Gospels I felt as if I was beginning to know Jesus. He was someone I would follow.

In the book of Acts, things changed. I still struggle with the fate of Ananias and Sephirah. The rest of the NT seemed to lack the same glory. The Book of Revelation seemed related to the OT. but not easy to understand.

There are things about me that I will not reveal. God loves me but most of his followers....
You struggle with the fate of Ananias and Sapphira but they were judged they lied to God. Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit. Read in Exodus what happened to Israel after they worshiped the molten calf. {Exo 32:19-28} Note the words of verse 27 "Thus says the LORD God of Israel..." God will not be mocked or dishonored.
The gospels tell us about Christ Jesus. From Acts to Jude it tell us how to live a Christian life. Where God would intervene directly in the nation of Israel in the OT we now have the Holy Spirit that guides us and convicts us and we also have Gods' written word. God does not dictate how we live our lives He has given us a free will so we can make real choices to follow or reject His way.
Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you into a proper understanding of His word. The bible is not a mystery, it does not have special meanings of words. You will find parts that are a hard to understand but if you trust the clear passages and use those to guide you then the more difficult ones will become understandable.
I have been a Christian for over sixty years and I can honestly say I do not have all the answers. Fact is I do not even know all the questions. The best advice I can give is to trust God to lead you into the truth. God bless.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,218
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This is just my opinion, and I am not a graduate of any clergy institution. The Bible is not such a large book. I was not raised with any religion, and my upbringing left me extremely angry. I still look back and wonder why I did not murder or go to prison, though I have no criminal record. Looking back God was guiding me and protecting me when I was not aware.

Because of a little pamphlet I had read, I sat down and read the entire Bible in two week ends. When I finished the OT, I was impressed with the mercy of God time and again. It made me wonder why people said that God was an angry, vengeful God. Had we read the same book? In the four Gospels I felt as if I was beginning to know Jesus. He was someone I would follow.

In the book of Acts, things changed. I still struggle with the fate of Ananias and Sephirah. The rest of the NT seemed to lack the same glory. The Book of Revelation seemed related to the OT. but not easy to understand.

There are things about me that I will not reveal. God loves me but most of his followers....
Precious friend, thanks for sharing. I will pray for you. If you would, please read God's ONE long sentence every day for a couple of weeks (14 verses for 14 days...}, and find out IF you "might Be Encouraged to see" The Glory Of God For us, Today, Under God's GRACE!

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
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PDX
Precious friend, thanks for sharing. I will pray for you. If you would, please read God's ONE long sentence every day for a couple of weeks (14 verses for 14 days...}, and find out IF you "might Be Encouraged to see" The Glory Of God For us, Today, Under God's GRACE!

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
Thank you. I must warn you that I am very different in ways that some find repulsive, so I won't be sharing that here. I do not engage in any sort of sexual sin, and do my best to be helpful to others. I will read what you ask.
 

BroTan

Active member
Sep 16, 2021
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Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. Many who teach eternal security teach that once a man is saved no matter how wicked he becomes he is still saved. Thus the teaching “once saved always saved”. Then you asked them what are you saved from? Or how did you obtain your salvation? And most cannot answer these questions. Some even say that sense I have been “saved” I am living a sinless life. (1John:1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. According to bible you can’t be living a sinless life, because if you make such a statement, you just lied.

Paul said in (1 Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means.
 

Katia

Active member
Aug 29, 2021
493
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PDX
Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. Many who teach eternal security teach that once a man is saved no matter how wicked he becomes he is still saved. Thus the teaching “once saved always saved”. Then you asked them what are you saved from? Or how did you obtain your salvation? And most cannot answer these questions. Some even say that sense I have been “saved” I am living a sinless life. (1John:1:10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. According to bible you can’t be living a sinless life, because if you make such a statement, you just lied.

Paul said in (1 Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means.
And so we go on our merry way, judging one another.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
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Thank you. I must warn you that I am very different in ways that some find repulsive, so I won't be sharing that here. I do not engage in any sort of sexual sin, and do my best to be helpful to others. I will read what you ask.
Precious Katia, I apologize; I forgot to direct you to Ephesians 1:1-14. Sorry...
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,181
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Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
nice catch phrases what happens if we don’t accept repentance and keep sinning after the atonement ?

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭

But receiving the Holy Spirit that’s guaranteed salvation right ? What if they don’t repent and bear the fruits of righteousness ?

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But

that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like the idea of saying I believe I believe and then showing our unbelief by our deeds doesn’t save anyone , receiving the promise of Christ d the Holy Ghost doesn’t seem to guarantee anything either but makes it more important for us to abide in the truth and beer fruit so we aren’t cast away And lost to the flames

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


if we come to him in faith hearing his word we’re going to be fine but faith isn’t to reject Gods word and replace it with catch phrases to reject his word eill
Leave us behind by our own corrupt will

Gods word is life through Christ as long as we don’t reject the word of Christ that teaches us to repent and walk upright we don’t have any worries , but to insist he isn’t going to keep his words is just what israels False prophets insisted they were convinced they could be rejected either even though he warned them for ages

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When we are insisting his word doesn’t apply it’s because we’re standing in the dark telling people not to approach the light We can have eternal Life and assurance of we accept the gospel promise he made who the. After he spoke life went and died formoir sins who accept and believe

When he died all His words became irrevocable

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-17‬ ‭

his blood shed is according to his own word that is forever mans path to life we aren’t supposed to judge ourselves justified we have one coming to do that

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gotta get our hearts right according to Gods judgement in Christ

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Hann57

Junior Member
Jan 2, 2018
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Do you believe Christ died for our sins as the gospel of your salvation ?

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

For you to be saved you must believe this gospel alone for salvation.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The apostle Paul received this gospel from Christ

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Any other gospel is not the gospel given to Paul by Christ.
Receiving Jesus as your Lord and saviour is not the gospel.
Calling upon the name of Jesus is NOT the gospel.
All these man made gospel cannot save one single soul.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

You must believe this gospel alone for your salvation.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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nice catch phrases what happens if we don’t accept repentance and keep sinning after the atonement ?
So your definition of repentance is completely stop sinning?

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬
In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful, habitual action. One's lifestyle or bent of life. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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But receiving the Holy Spirit that’s guaranteed salvation right?
2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

What if they don’t repent and bear the fruits of righteousness?
Then we demonstrate that we are not true believers and were not born again from the start.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we saw in (Hebrews 10:26-39).

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)

seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But

that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
 
May 22, 2020
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OSAS is a new age religion teaching which has only appeared since the 1960's.

It does not pass the logic test. Let alone common sense.

Many Bible verses refutes such thinking including the following; Matt. 2; 13.....'he who endures until the end shall be saved'....now we are born again until we are judged, which occurs after physical death. Then we may be declared...saved.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
OSAS is a new age religion teaching which has only appeared since the 1960's.

It does not pass the logic test. Let alone common sense.

Many Bible verses refutes such thinking including the following; Matt. 2; 13.....'he who endures until the end shall be saved'....now we are born again until we are judged, which occurs after physical death. Then we may be declared...saved.
Legalism is a tried an d true religion. Found all the way back to cain. Who tried to offer God his works.

Legalism rejected christ and crucified him. All while lieing to itself it was lovers of God and doing his will.

Eternal life is biblical. And foundational to true christlike living. As John said, it is the fact we KNOW we have eternal life (osas) that keeps us believing in his name
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,181
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2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Then we demonstrate that we are not true believers and were not born again from the start.

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we saw in (Hebrews 10:26-39).

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
“These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. “

what’s a pre salvation ministry ?
the same letter begins like this

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

and goes into this

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see why single verse theology doesn’t work ? Your basing things on plucked out verses d avoiding the things Paul is actually teaching in the same letters ybis oaul tying inheritance to thier actions in the exact same letter talking about the spirit ?

it’s not uncommon it’s how his letters are all constructed

Doesn’t he repeat it again here

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to the same church “ they who do such things have no inheritance “

why are only a select few verses acceptable ? And why do all the clear thkngs taught require a long circular argument that leaves the context behind and searches for repetitive single verses requiring your explanation ?


If Ephesians 1:13 is acceptable y isn’t the rest of Paul’s letter ?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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OSAS is a new age religion teaching which has only appeared since the 1960's.

It does not pass the logic test. Let alone common sense.

Many Bible verses refutes such thinking including the following; Matt. 2; 13.....'he who endures until the end shall be saved'....now we are born again until we are judged, which occurs after physical death. Then we may be declared...saved.
yes indeed if you notice they have to always reject what’s written plainly and take people on a king circle of a few single verses and explain things themself so for instance

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s a consistent message in the New Testament

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a constant call to repentance and if we continually reject it it will never do it’s work it’s good advice to not let anyone deceive us from what’s really plain on scripture

to get past this plain understanding they have to wuote something unrelated that seems like a conditionless promise from the same books and letters when faced with the truth it has to become a long non biblical explanation from a modern grace book but they can never come to acknowledge what’s there in front of them
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,490
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what’s a pre salvation ministry ?
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

the same letter begins like this

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

and goes into this

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
The bolded words above from Ephesians 5 is ‘descriptive’ of unbelievers and does not negate Ephesians 1:13-14.

do you see why single verse theology doesn’t work ? Your basing things on plucked out verses d avoiding the things
That’s exactly what you are doing.

Paul is actually teaching in the same letters ybis oaul tying inheritance to thier actions in the exact same letter talking about the spirit ?

it’s not uncommon it’s how his letters are all constructed

Doesn’t he repeat it again here

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Again, ‘descriptive’ of unbelievers. Galatians 5:21 ..those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (NASB)

1 John 3:9 - No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. - *Hermeneutics.*

to the same church “ they who do such things have no inheritance “

why are only a select few verses acceptable ? And why do all the clear thkngs taught require a long circular argument that leaves the context behind and searches for repetitive single verses requiring your explanation ?
In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 we see a similar list of sins and Paul explains that don’t you know that the unrighteous (did you see that?) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. :)

If Ephesians 1:13 is acceptable y isn’t the rest of Paul’s letter ?
Ephesians 1:13-14 along with the rest of Paul’s letters are perfectly acceptable when properly interpreted. You seem to have a difficult time properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
OSAS is a new age religion teaching which has only appeared since the 1960's.

It does not pass the logic test. Let alone common sense.

Many Bible verses refutes such thinking including the following; Matt. 2; 13.....'he who endures until the end shall be saved'....now we are born again until we are judged, which occurs after physical death. Then we may be declared...saved.
Nonsense!
The war against Eternal Salvation may have began in the 1960's, and why not? The fallen world revolution started about that time too. Why not condemn Christ's sacrifice that assures eternal Salvation, so that people can think they don't need to be saved because there's no real point.

No one, and I mean no one, who is in Christ thinks their Salvation is transitional and revocable. Anyone who does isn't. Defaming Eternal Security in Christ is Satanic. As is the accompanying lie that says the reason OSAS is not true is because its believers think they can keep sinning and stay saved.
That's another lie the Bible proves as such.

Anti-Eternal Security advocates? Call its believers and promoters what they are. Satanists. Because the Bible proves they're a liar. Just like their master.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
yes indeed if you notice they have to always reject what’s written plainly and take people on a king circle of a few single verses and explain things themself so for instance

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s a consistent message in the New Testament

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a constant call to repentance and if we continually reject it it will never do it’s work it’s good advice to not let anyone deceive us from what’s really plain on scripture

to get past this plain understanding they have to wuote something unrelated that seems like a conditionless promise from the same books and letters when faced with the truth it has to become a long non biblical explanation from a modern grace book but they can never come to acknowledge what’s there in front of them
your a perfect example of a modern day pharisee.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,181
5,727
113
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

The bolded words above from Ephesians 5 is ‘descriptive’ of unbelievers and does not negate Ephesians 1:13-14.

That’s exactly what you are doing.

Again, ‘descriptive’ of unbelievers. Galatians 5:21 ..those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (NASB)

1 John 3:9 - No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. - *Hermeneutics.*

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 we see a similar list of sins and Paul explains that don’t you know that the unrighteous (did you see that?) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. :)

Ephesians 1:13-14 along with the rest of Paul’s letters are perfectly acceptable when properly interpreted. You seem to have a difficult time properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
lol yeah you know how you explain everything away forminstance you went on a long explaination of this and explained it right away ? That’s not how to understand anything this actually is

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.”

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬

THIS IS ACTUALLY HOW TO UNDERSTAND IT

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

‭‭John‬ ‭15:2-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So we can either hear Christs word which is the truth or reject it and explain Our own delusions coming from a grace book That’s lead us far astray
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,181
5,727
113
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment.

The bolded words above from Ephesians 5 is ‘descriptive’ of unbelievers and does not negate Ephesians 1:13-14.

That’s exactly what you are doing.

Again, ‘descriptive’ of unbelievers. Galatians 5:21 ..those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (NASB)

1 John 3:9 - No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. - *Hermeneutics.*

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 we see a similar list of sins and Paul explains that don’t you know that the unrighteous (did you see that?) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. :)

Ephesians 1:13-14 along with the rest of Paul’s letters are perfectly acceptable when properly interpreted. You seem to have a difficult time properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
properly interpreting is explaining it away based on Joseph prince and Paul Ellis and not on Christs word ?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,181
5,727
113
Nonsense!
The war against Eternal Salvation may have began in the 1960's, and why not? The fallen world revolution started about that time too. Why not condemn Christ's sacrifice that assures eternal Salvation, so that people can think they don't need to be saved because there's no real point.

No one, and I mean no one, who is in Christ thinks their Salvation is transitional and revocable. Anyone who does isn't. Defaming Eternal Security in Christ is Satanic. As is the accompanying lie that says the reason OSAS is not true is because its believers think they can keep sinning and stay saved.
That's another lie the Bible proves as such.

Anti-Eternal Security advocates? Call its believers and promoters what they are. Satanists. Because the Bible proves they're a liar. Just like their master.
What about if we continue in sin ?

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-27, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think I’m hearing you say those in Christ are secure and I agree but what about those who part from Christ and his word are they secure and saved ?