Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

Judas was in it for the power and the money (he was a thief). And he was (tragically) guaranteed damnation per prophecy. And Satan never enters a believer (and never entered Peter BTW, as some have foolishly said on this thread).

That is some wackadoo view you are holding bro. Scary really. A lot of what you say is scary to be honest.......

What power and money initially attracted Judas to Jesus? Was Jesus extremely wealthy and powerful when He was selecting His disciples?

 

[Runningman]

Judas was in it for the power and the money (he was a thief). And he was (tragically) guaranteed damnation per prophecy. And Satan never enters a believer (and never entered Peter BTW, as some have foolishly said on this thread).

That is some wackadoo view you are holding bro. Scary really. A lot of what you say is scary to be honest.......

Also, I might add, I don’t think Jesus felt the same way you do about what you believe Judas’ intentions were. Speaking to the 12 Disciples, Jesus was willing to give Judas a throne and the power to judge.

Matthew 19
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Magenta]

Why are you wowing? Clearly Judas had an unrepentant heart. The New Testament doesn’t say the other disciples had any repentance issues even though I’m sure they sinnedZ all people do. Therefore, Judas was unclean. In the end he did repent though. That’s good.

His repentance was not unto life. You said sin made one unclean, therefore ALL would have been unclean. You
rationalize and minimize the very words of Jesus regarding Judas, trying to justify making him something he was not.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

You can grieve the Spirit. And God may take you to the woodshed. But you cannot be unborn or unsealed or lose the earnest of the Spirit.

BTW......when you start with a doctrine of "losing your salvation" you can/may/will end up with a works/legalism cult.

But that's not what 2 Pet 2:20-22 says about it: "20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

(1) Those who have truly known Our Lord and Savior can again turn away from Him.
(2) When they do this, the latter state is worse with them than the beginning.
(3) This passage clearly shows apostasy from Christ is worse than not knowing Him.

As for Seal, that refers to an External/Visible Sign like Baptism/Circumcision etc.

Reference: "11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them."

Once a person was circumcised, he could not be circumcised again, in the OT.

Likewise, in the NT, once a person is Baptized, he should not be baptized again.

If he becomes apostate, he doesn't lose the seal of Baptism. He loses the indwelling Grace of the Holy Spirit.

When after his apostasy he repents and comes back to Christ, he is not baptized again. But he can be forgiven and restored again, when he confesses his sin of apostasy etc, and the Lord washes it away, as it says in 1 Jn 1:9 also.

This is the sense in which Scripture speaks of "One Baptism". One in the sense that Baptism is not re-done twice etc.

God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

Just like today we christians accept this speaker or that one only to later find they were/are not men of God. Peter is one of my favorite scripture personalities , because he is a lot like so many of us, just a blue collar guy.

A man of God is a believer.

 

[cv5]

I don’t think Jesus felt the same way you do about what you believe Judas’ intentions were.

Oh Jesus was well aware of Judas's intentions. No doubt about that. But what is important is what Jesus's intentions were for Judas. Which was that he be saved. In fact Jesus held out the offer of salvation to Judas right to the bitter end. As He does for all mankind.

And as men today refuse to receive His gracious gift of salvation, so did Judas.

 

[Beckie]

A man of God is a believer.

i can not conclude what you do. To me you say Judas believed in Jesus , Believed He is the Son of God . the Messiah the Living God. Yet he while being a 'godly' man sold Him out was a big part of the murder plot. and yet you believe one of the murders of Jesus who killed himself is in heaven. can not agree

 

[cv5]

But that's not what 2 Pet 2:20-22 says about it: "20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

(1) Those who have truly known Our Lord and Savior can again turn away from Him.
(2) When they do this, the latter state is worse with them than the beginning.
(3) This passage clearly shows apostasy from Christ is worse than not knowing Him.

As for Seal, that refers to an External/Visible Sign like Baptism/Circumcision etc.

Reference: "11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them."

Once a person was circumcised, he could not be circumcised again, in the OT.

Likewise, in the NT, once a person is Baptized, he should not be baptized again.

If he becomes apostate, he doesn't lose the seal of Baptism. He loses the indwelling Grace of the Holy Spirit.

When after his apostasy he repents and comes back to Christ, he is not baptized again. But he can be forgiven and restored again, when he confesses his sin of apostasy etc, and the Lord washes it away, as it says in 1 Jn 1:9 also.

This is the sense in which Scripture speaks of "One Baptism". One in the sense that Baptism is not re-done twice etc.

God Bless.

The redeemed are on equal footing here bro....eternal love before the foundation of the world.

Jhn 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[cv5]

But that's not what 2 Pet 2:20-22 says about it: "20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

(1) Those who have truly known Our Lord and Savior can again turn away from Him.
(2) When they do this, the latter state is worse with them than the beginning.
(3) This passage clearly shows apostasy from Christ is worse than not knowing Him.

As for Seal, that refers to an External/Visible Sign like Baptism/Circumcision etc.

Reference: "11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them."

Once a person was circumcised, he could not be circumcised again, in the OT.

Likewise, in the NT, once a person is Baptized, he should not be baptized again.

If he becomes apostate, he doesn't lose the seal of Baptism. He loses the indwelling Grace of the Holy Spirit.

When after his apostasy he repents and comes back to Christ, he is not baptized again. But he can be forgiven and restored again, when he confesses his sin of apostasy etc, and the Lord washes it away, as it says in 1 Jn 1:9 also.

This is the sense in which Scripture speaks of "One Baptism". One in the sense that Baptism is not re-done twice etc.

God Bless.

From mans perspective, it may seem as one "lost their salvation". From the divine perspective......they never had it.

 

[Runningman]

His repentance was not unto life. You said sin made one unclean, therefore ALL would have been unclean. You
rationalize and minimize the very words of Jesus regarding Judas, trying to justify making him something he was not.

I don’t think you’re understanding Jesus’ definition of unclean. Jesus was all about the heart, the inner spiritual person. Judas had ulterior motives which is what made him unclean; that was his sin. The other disciples didn’t have that heart problem, apparently.

Judas had this sort of problem and he needed a lot more than a foot washing.

Matthew 23
25“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

 

[Rosemaryx]

At one time I was encouraged that this site was a place where spiritual and personal growth was nurtured, but sadly what I see more is it’s a place where psychosis permeates.

Brother , it is actually getting worse...

 

[Snacks]

Brother , it is actually getting worse...

No doubt dear sister. We have yet another new idiot on this site who denies ever sinning now that they’re “Christian”.

 

[Beckie]

As we backbite

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

If we believe in Christ, we will be justified. When we love our brothers and sisters, we/others know we are justified. As we live out our lives in faithful obedience to God's Will, we are sanctified. If, by the Grace of God, we persevere to the end in faith and love for Christ, we will be saved and go to Heaven. That's how I understand it. If we disagree slightly, fine. As it says in Hebrews etc, let us consider how to stir each other to good works, to growing in love, for the Lord and each other etc.

1 Jn 3:

"14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death ... 16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters."

Heb 10:

"19Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

God Bless.

 

[Sipsey]

Why are you wowing? Clearly Judas had an unrepentant heart. The New Testament doesn’t say the other disciples had any repentance issues even though I’m sure they sinnedZ all people do. Therefore, Judas was unclean. In the end he did repent though. That’s good.

There are several Greek words translated as repent. Look at the one that describes Judas’s

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

1 Tim 4:16 can end the debate:

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Contrast this to the "Free Grace" view summed up by Wiki here:

"Free Grace doctrine
The Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist doctrine has been espoused by Charles Stanley, Norman Geisler, Zane C. Hodges, Bill Bright, and others. This view, like the traditional Calvinist view, emphasizes that people are saved purely by an act of divine grace that does not depend at all on the deeds of the individual, and for that reason (in contrary to Calvinism) insists that nothing the person can do can affect their salvation. In the Free Grace view, saints can fall away (stop persevering) in both conduct and faith yet remain eternally secure." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Free_Grace_doctrine

I believe St. Augustine got it right long ago on the Biblical teaching of Perseverance as Gift of God which guarantees the elect will persevere, but is not given simultaneously with justification, but only after prayer, good works, sanctification etc.

"Augustine defined perseverance as gift by which one perseveres up to the end of their lives, if a person dies as a believer they had been given the gift, but if one dies as an unbeliever, even if he used to once believe, he did not have this gift given." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_of_perseverance

Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
"Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

John Calvin said he got his OSAS doctrine from Augustine, so this is probably the passage he misunderstood as teaching it.

St. Augustine did not teach OSAS. He said that, after you receive the Grace to Persevere, you will never fall away in Faith. It could be called "OPAS". But it is very clear, from many Biblical texts, Perseverance is granted not immediately but later on.

Later on, in the 20th century, some Free Grace preachers modified Calvinist OSAS to say even apostasy does not cause one to lose one's soul. So according to this opinion, one is not saved by faith, since one can be saved without faith. And even though in the Bible it says without faith it is impossible to please God, apparently one can go to Heaven without faith/pleasing God? Free Grace takes OSAS to its logical conclusion; as allegedly adultery and murder etc cannot cause one to lose the Holy Spirit, so finally it is claimed that even actual apostasy or loss of Faith itself also allegedly cannot.

lol, ok. If you're convinced by that, fine. My studies of this issue have led me the Conditional Security/OPAS understanding.

God Bless.

 

[Magenta]

I believe St. Augustine got it right long ago on the Biblical teaching of Perseverance as Gift of God which guarantees the elect
will persevere, but is not given simultaneously with justification, but only after prayer, good works, sanctification etc.

At what point does sanctification end, after which one receives this gift of perseverance?

 

[Polar]

No doubt dear sister. We have yet another new idiot on this site who denies ever sinning now that they’re “Christian”.

why are you calling people idiots? I know the thread you are referring to and no one has said they never sin again once you are a Christian.

This, is actually what the thread has been about:

Several places in Scripture refer to believers being “in Christ” (1 Peter 5:14; Philippians 1:1; Romans 8:1). Colossians 3:3 gives a little more insight: “For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” When we come to Christ as broken sinners, He exchanges our sin for His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Through repentance and acceptance of Jesus’ death on our behalf, we are even called His children (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26). God no longer sees our imperfections; He sees the righteousness of His own Son instead (Ephesians 2:13; Hebrews 8:12). Because we are in Christ, God sees Christ’s righteousness covering us. Only “in Christ” is our sin debt cancelled, our relationship with God restored, and our eternity secured (John 3:16–18; 20:31). In Christ, God sees me as a new creation: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have peace with God and are counted as righteous before Him (verses 17–21). Rather than seeing my sin, God sees the righteousness of His Son. He sees me as justified, redeemed, sanctified, even glorified (see Romans 8:30).

In Ephesians 1:3–14 we learn some of the ways God sees us in Christ. God “has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” (verse 3). We are equipped with all we need. We are chosen to “be holy and blameless before [God]” (verse 4). We are seen as holy and blameless because we are in Christ (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:18).
see Got Questions

We know that we still sin, but God does not see as sinners the way some here describe themself. It is vain repetition to say over and over as you have been doing, that anyone is saying we are now living in sinless perfection.

no one has said that yet you continue to say that is what is being said

why would you do that?

 

[ZNP]

I think Jesus tells us who the saved are, and who are not, and why in the parable of the 4 soils.

Soil 1. Are the unsaved world. They heard, but utterly rejected the Gospel right off the bat.

Soil 2. Are your 1 John 2:19 people. The fact that they fell away proves they never had Jesus (the Root) to begin with.

Soil 3. The most difficult soil to grapple with. I believe they are saved, but arrive in eternity with nothing but Jesus as their Foundation, and are amongst the least in Heaven.

Soil 4. Are of course the saved who will rule and reign, along with other rewards, with Jesus.

Matthew 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

I find it interesting that the word Sodom is derived from the Hebrew word for scorched.

 

[Runningman]

Judas was in it for the power and the money (he was a thief). And he was (tragically) guaranteed damnation per prophecy. And Satan never enters a believer (and never entered Peter BTW, as some have foolishly said on this thread).

Jesus, speaking to Peter, addressed Satan. Peter isn’t Satan so we can safely assume Satan had entered him. So apparently Satan can enter a believer.

Matthew 16
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

That is some wackadoo view you are holding bro. Scary really. A lot of what you say is scary to be honest.......

Hmm. Sorry to hear you feel that way, but don’t be scared. Be scared if those who can’t provide verses to support their view(s).

Now I’ll ask you a question, if I may.

Provided that the NT never directly says Judas is an unbeliever and that Jesus told Judas he would have eternal life(Matthew 19:29), what is the biggest road block for you about Judas being saved?