Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

Galatains 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[cv5]

You know what? Who cares about the nasty things you all are saying while hiding behind the thinly veiled guise of genuine good will. I am totally not seeing Christ when people say bad things about me or lie or say "there's a gulf fixed between us" and such nonsense like that.

So look at this.

What's this say? You're under grace upon the condition of being led by the Spirit. If you aren't and are doing things like lying and speaking evil about people, that's called an act of the flesh and it puts one under the law. This plainly means salvation can lost.

Galatians 5
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Romans 6
14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Keep in mind that present posession carries with it certain and inevitable future glorification.
It's a package deal.....

 

[Runningman]

Keep in mind that present posession carries with it certain and inevitable future glorification.
It's a package deal.....

Now you're telling me what to keep in mind? Bro, you're better off not talking if you can't say anything good.

 

[posthuman]

Now you're telling me what to keep in mind? Bro, you're better off not talking if you can't say anything good.

What he's trying to tell you is good. That the promise is trustworthy. Keep the faithfulness of God in mind, amen amen amen!!

 

[Runningman]

What he's trying to tell you is good. That the promise is trustworthy. Keep the faithfulness of God in mind, amen amen amen!!

I don’t trust him. Implying I’m on the other side of the gulf, saying I’m clumsy, and eagerly believing the false things about me that you said, I would say the feeling is mutual. Don’t try to pastor me, I reject it @cv5

You and I are not the same. That’s so true and that will be our motto for now.

 

[posthuman]

I don’t trust him. Implying I’m on the other side of the gulf, saying I’m clumsy, and eagerly believing the false things about me that you said, I would say the feeling is mutual. Don’t try to pastor me, I reject it @cv5

You and I are not the same. That’s so true and that will be our motto for now.

I feel like this is the most honest communication weve had so far

The whole reason I'm in this thread is to try to help you come to positions that honor God

Positions that make Christ appear to say things that aren't 100% true? Incorrect.
Positions that make God appear incapable or unfaithful? Incorrect.

It is really that simple.

Glorify God in all you think and say and believe

I am for you, not against you. But being for you sometimes means being against the vanity of your proud mind.

Please don't think I am any different
I am the same
I have been in the same place and that's why I'm adamant here, trying to bring you to knowledge of the truth of the gospel, that it can be trusted, that it is secure

 

[cv5]

I don’t trust him. Implying I’m on the other side of the gulf, saying I’m clumsy, and eagerly believing the false things about me that you said, I would say the feeling is mutual. Don’t try to pastor me, I reject it @cv5

You and I are not the same. That’s so true and that will be our motto for now.

Wow sorry about that buddy. Hoping you can try to pick up on some of the value added inputs and ignore the rest.

 

[cv5]

cv5, you shouldn’t believe everything people say here. People say false things about me every day.

OK......so you believe Redemption is a present posession that can be lost.

In another post you said the Judas was saved at first, then lost his salvation and then regained it before he died.

That being the case let me ask you this:

-Is God forced to capitulate to the vascillating whim of the believer (or unbeliever) whenever this person chooses to exert his will?

-Does one become reborn, die, and then reborn again according to a persons will?

-Does Jesus and marry his Bride, divorce her, then remarry her ad infinitum?

 

[Runningman]

I feel like this is the most honest communication weve had so far

The whole reason I'm in this thread is to try to help you come to positions that honor God

Positions that make Christ appear to say things that aren't 100% true? Incorrect.
Positions that make God appear incapable or unfaithful? Incorrect.

It is really that simple.

Glorify God in all you think and say and believe

I am for you, not against you. But being for you sometimes means being against the vanity of your proud mind.

Please don't think I am any different
I am the same
I have been in the same place and that's why I'm adamant here, trying to bring you to knowledge of the truth of the gospel, that it can be trusted, that it is secure

I must insist I don’t believe anything you say at this point.

You’re free to reach out to me when or if you need help with understanding how salvation can be lost and OSAS is false.

 

[mailmandan]

Keep in mind that present posession carries with it certain and inevitable future glorification.
It's a package deal.....

Amen! Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.*

 

[Rosemaryx]

 

[PennEd]

Did you look in the seat cushions!?

 

[cv5]

OK......so you believe Redemption is a present posession that can be lost.

In another post you said the Judas was saved at first, then lost his salvation and then regained it before he died.

That being said, let me ask you this:

{EDIT from earlier post}

1) is God obliged to react to the vascillating whim of the believer (or unbeliever) as regards salvation?

2) does one become reborn, die, and then reborn again according Scripture?

3) does Jesus and marry his Bride, divorce her, then remarry her.....perhaps multiple times according to Scripture?

4) does Jesus warn His sheep that if they stray, they risk the mortal peril of being "lost"?

5) does God cast out His adopted children to eternal wrath should they stumble, stray or become temporarily disobedient?

6) how many sins did Jesus die for on our behalf? Is there a limit?

RM......focus on items 2, 3 and 4 and the rest should be easy.

 

[cv5]

Amen! Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

*ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.*

Rom 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Amen. If you are in process, the fact of the completion of God's gracious will for us is quite inevitable.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Now you're telling me what to keep in mind? Bro, you're better off not talking if you can't say anything good.

Actually, the "once saved always saved" part of TULIP is not the part I find hardest to get my head around. I think we're both saying the same thing in a different way. Neither of us believe someone living in sin is going to heaven. You and I would say they are back slidden, they would say they were never saved in the first place. At least that's the view my personal OSAS friends have given me when we speak about it.

The issue that bothers me the most with TULIP is election. The idea that God "created" a people for destruction. A people that cannot accept Him. That's where I get stuck. This is what that looks like to me. Just being honest.

 

[HeIsHere]

Galatains 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Best to not cherry pick verses..
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

And Paul continues on to give examples of the unsaved behave (v. 19) but we are not to be like them, so do not act like them, because we gain by living in the Spirit.

This is his point, nothing to do with loss of salvation or earning salvation

The logical end of your position in your your plan is you must be perfect on your own merit to inherit the kingdom of God.

God's plan is to for people to accept Christ's completed work as a gift which cannot be revoked.

Ephesians 4:30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Eternally saved is God's plan of redemption and the OP of this thread has been disproved. But then, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

 

[Runningman]

Actually, the "once saved always saved" part of TULIP is not the part I find hardest to get my head around. I think we're both saying the same thing in a different way. Neither of us believe someone living in sin is going to heaven. You and I would say they are back slidden, they would say they were never saved in the first place. At least that's the view my personal OSAS friends have given me when we speak about it.

True, I think you and I are mostly in agreement.

The fatal flaw in their argument is that when or/if a OSAS adherent backslides (may God lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, amen), and they admit sinning is something everyone does, then they must assume the position that they were never saved to begin with and therefore can't clearly explain how one is saved at all. In that way, OSAS is actually the anti-thesis of grace and salvation.

On the other hand, those who believe salvation can be lost, or OSAS is false, normally posit that it's willful continued sin that separates someone from God, but confession, repentance, and being led by the Spirit of God, that immediately brings someone back into God's grace.

The issue that bothers me the most with TULIP is election. The idea that God "created" a people for destruction. A people that cannot accept Him. That's where I get stuck. This is what that looks like to me. Just being honest.

View attachment 247878

OSAS is TULIP repackaged and rebranded in many regards. I don't buy it either.

 

[Runningman]

Best to not cherry pick verses..
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

The verse you just used says only supports the claim that those who practice the "acts of the flesh" will not inherent the kingdom of God. Paul told them not to do it:

"But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh"

And Paul continues on to give examples of the unsaved behave (v. 19) but we are not to be like them, so do not act like them, because we gain by living in the Spirit.

This letter is written to Christians informing them to not indulge the flesh followed by what happens when they do: no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

This is his point, nothing to do with loss of salvation or earning salvation

Not inheriting the kingdom of God for indulging the flesh is a loss of salvation.

The logical end of your position in your your plan is you must be perfect on your own merit to inherit the kingdom of God.

That's not what the Bible says the remedy for the problem is. The chapter we're talking about says to be led by the Spirit. Do you know what it's like to be led by the Spirit? Can you tell me how you experience it?

God's plan is to for people to accept Christ's completed work as a gift which cannot be revoked.

Ephesians 4:30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I implore you, please read more than that. The context continues into the next chapter:

Ephesians 5
1Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Agreed.

 

[HeIsHere]

therefore can't clearly explain how one is saved at all.

Several of us have explained the plan of salvation several times.

normally posit that it's willful continued sin that separates someone from God, but confession, repentance, and being led by the Spirit of God, that immediately brings someone back into God's grace.

And by the way the repentance that leads to salvation is a ONE time event in a moment in time.

The price for all sin is paid.

We can grieve the Spirit but the the status of "justified" cannot be revoked because we did nothing to earn it nor can we do anything to loose it.

Well I am no fan of TULIP but is it at least far more aligned with the biblical plan of redemption than the Roman Catholic plan you are espousing.

 

[cv5]

The issue that bothers me the most with TULIP is election. The idea that God "created" a people for destruction. A people that cannot accept Him. That's where I get stuck. This is what that looks like to me. Just being honest.

Yet salvation is available to all for the asking.

IMO, pharaoh was provided a vast array of irrefutable signs whereby he had every opportunity to repent. Pharoah hardened his heart and refused. So it is with the unsaved. A lost opportunity.

On the other hand, the saved see and believe. And depart from Egypt. And don't turn back.

The thing is, fallen man is ALREADY condemned. God does not need to exert His will in the least to accomplish anything in that regard.

Setting philosophy aside, all anyone has to do is cry out to God for mercy and forgiveness and ask to receive the full and free forgiveness provided by the completed work of His Son.

Some do not want it.....because the find it offensive and they will not yield just as pharaoh found Israelites and the God of Israel offensive and did not yield.