Once Saved, Always Saved??

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
That is another bad teaching my brother.

There is no different standards for believers in Christ.

If something is said applies to a group of believers then it applies to all believers.

The teaching this was only said to Hebrews, or Corinthians, or Romans, or Jews is a dangerous philosophy.

There is enough teaching to show we all are held under the same gospel teachings.
 
Thanks for all the input so far! I didn't mean to start a huge conflict, but I do have a lot to consider! I'll have to go through all these posts when I have a little bit more time so I can consider each one more carefully!
 
elizabethlear said:
Thanks for all the input so far! I didn't mean to start a huge conflict, but I do have a lot to consider! I'll have to go through all these posts when I have a little bit more time so I can consider each one more carefully!
Click to expand...


Well, it's a major conflict because it makes God use force instead of love. A believer can harden his heart....It doesn't say he will, only that He can. The more you get to know Jesus the chance of that happening goes down. As long as my faith remains in Christ I am saved.
 
The doctrine of eternal security was started in the 4th century (301-400 A.D.) by Augustine when he went apostate.

The term Once Saved Always Saved was not coined tell the 1500's by John Calvin who adopted his doctrine from Augustine's.

There are differences in the two, they are not the same and both have teachings that contradict the bible.
 
Context!

If "we" as Hebrews sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. ( this is different from receiving the Truth - Jesus )..there remains no more sacrifice for sins because only Jesus' Blood cleanses us.

All of the Jewish authors Paul, Peter, James....all used the terms brethren to identify with jewish people..The "we" above is including all Hebrew people.

I will give you an example..If we ( Americans collectively ) do not receive Christ as our savior, there is no more sacrifice for sins. I say that even though I am a believer to include all of us Americans.

Remember it is the book of Hebrews so the author was speaking to them about priesthood, sacrifices. old and new covenants..temple practices..etc. So, he talked to them in jewish terms that they would understand.

Hebrews 10: 22-25 = He is telling the believers to hold on to their confession of hope despite the pressure to turn from their beliefs. This is why the author is encouraging them to continue to be there for each other and stir up their love.


This whole willful sin thing "self-destructs" as we all sin willfully..none of us will be saved!

How much sin is too much? How much sin does it take to nullify the blood of Jesus? How much sin does it take for the Holy Spirit and Jesus to forsake and leave us...even though They said they never would? At what point are they lying to us? What other things have They said to us that is not really true? How do we know what to believe that They are saying to us is true? Can you see how this under minds the very character of God?

We do not have a covenant with God. The covenant is between Jesus and the Father. We believe in Jesus and have been made one in the spirit with Him. Salvation is not based on us in the New Covenant. It was in the Old Covenant.

Which is why in Hebrews it says we have a better covenant based on better promises!


One important thing to remember is not to let obscure scriptures rob us of the plain and simply true clearly seen...whosever believes in Him will have eternal life. If an obscure scripture "seemingly" conflicts with the known truth , then we are looking at it with the wrong "glasses".

Some view scripture with "Old Covenant self-performance based glasses "..others with "New Covenant - grace-based glasses"



Everyone gets to choose what glasses they want to see with!

We have a great salvation in HIM!



Roberth said:
It doesn't say that and you know it. Look at the context:

Heb 10:22 ....let us (believers) draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (i.e., meeting in church), as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we (believers) sin willfully ....

Shame on you for distorting what Paul is actually saying...Shame.
Click to expand...
 
KennethC said:
The doctrine of eternal security was started in the 4th century (301-400 A.D.) by Augustine when he went apostate.

The term Once Saved Always Saved was not coined tell the 1500's by John Calvin who adopted his doctrine from Augustine's.

There are differences in the two, they are not the same and both have teachings that contradict the bible.
Click to expand...


Ken, the Bible teaches that Christ's righteousness (sinless nature) is imputed to the believer. Thus, you cannot earn it, nor keep it based on you in any way.

To believe otherwise would be to say Christ's imputed righteousness is only as good until your first sin after conversion.

You cannot add anything to the gospel of faith.

If you're not trusting in the finished work of Jesus, then you're trusting in yourself for your salvation. You cannot mix the two.

People who trust in themselves and their works to keep them saved, are not saved at all.
 
elizabethlear said:
Recently my dad and I were talking about the belief "Once Saved, Always Saved." It's a pretty self-explanatory idea. In his church, he was raised to believe that and he asked "So you're saved even if you later on renounce your faith?" The answer he got was that if that happened, you were never really saved in the first place.

That answer seems like kind of a cop out to me.

Anyways, what do y'all think about "Once saved, always saved?"
Click to expand...

I've heard the never really saved to start with logic before and I thought the same thing....cop out. Not sure though. Is everyone who claims to be saved really saved. There are those who will come to Christ expectantly and be told by him I never knew you. Maybe those are ones never saved to begin with.

The are also arguments for losing salvation, then counter arguments and so on. One side of the fence says you can lose salvation and the other side says you can be wrong about having salvation in the first place. Too often it degenerates into an " I wanna be right!!!" fight.

What stands out is that both sides seem to reserve for themselves a pathway to another Christian's potential condemnation, which is only a hop skip and a jump from judgment of that Christian, something reserved for God.
 
KennethC said:
Both Paul and Jude gave us the OT example of those saved out of Egypt that then returned back to idol worship in warnings when discussing salvation.

When you read back in Exodus we will see not only were they killed, but Exodus 32:33 says they were blotted out of the Book of Life.
Click to expand...

I think the op is referring to people under the new covenant, not the old one
 
God is fair and just even thee angels are given a free will to choose...
 
elizabethlear said:
Recently my dad and I were talking about the belief "Once Saved, Always Saved." It's a pretty self-explanatory idea. In his church, he was raised to believe that and he asked "So you're saved even if you later on renounce your faith?" The answer he got was that if that happened, you were never really saved in the first place.

That answer seems like kind of a cop out to me.

Anyways, what do y'all think about "Once saved, always saved?"
Click to expand...
I also believe that is a cop out because OSASers can't handle that their doctrine is false. They make it seem like Our Lord didn't do His part, which is ridiculous!
 
Roberth said:
Are you once saved, always saved folks reading my Bible quotes or ignoring them?

We are once saved, always saved as long as our faith remains in Christ Jesus. Dig?

I mean, come on folks...have you lost your ever loving minds.....Common sense.
Click to expand...

The last person I was witnessing to was teaching sinless perfection and only Jesus could take the scroll in heaven because only Jesus was worthy. They don't care that 1 John 1:8-9 says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. I witness to some far off people who teach that you can be perfect:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect (g5046 τέλειος teleios), even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (g5046 τέλειος teleios).

I was trying to tell them that "perfect" can mean "mature" but only half the Bibles I survey hold to that opinion:

Philippians 3:15 NKJV Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

NewKing James Version, © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. All rights reserved. Used bypermission.

They don't care that it was by the offering of Jesus' death on the cross thatcaused us to be perfected:


Hebrews10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

They teach that if you sin wilfully then you can't be saved and they use this verse:


Hebrews10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Who hasn't sinned once since they were saved? Don't answer that..

They can't understand that we all sin and all sin is willful.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”-I John 3:9

“Note: In 1 John 3:4, 8, 9, the KJV wrongly has ‘commit’ (an impossible meaning in v.9; the RV rightly has ‘doeth,’ i.e., of a continuous habit, equivalent to prasso, ‘to practice.’ The committal of an act is not in view in that passage.”

P.113, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words

“First John 3:9 is in the present continuous tense and should be translated ‘Whoever is born of God does not continually practice sin.”-Dr. Norman Geisler, p.539 “When Critics Ask”

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”-1 John 1:8

Can a believer lose his salvation? I believe this is keeping with my view on Hebrews 6:4 and how it is talking about Hebrew believers and the writer uses the pronoun “them” instead of “us”. I believe this verse is talking about an apostate or someone who heard but never really believed and those who hear the gospel and don’t believe seem to disintegrate (Romans 1:21-25). In your opinion, is this verse about a believer who walked away or turned away from God?

Hebrews 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge (g1922 ἐπίγνωσις epignōsis) of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is not a divine knowledge and the example is in its definition of “knowledge”:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1922&t=KJV
1) precise and correct knowledge

a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

A definition for divine knowledge may be Philippians 3:10:

Philippians 3:10 That I may know (g1097 γινώσκω ginōskō) him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1097&t=KJV

1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel

a) to become known

I believe part of the context of Hebrews 10:26 is found in verses 27 and 28 that they are “adversaries” (v.27) and they “despised Moses law” and we might look to examples of people who despised Moses law and who died with two or three witnesses.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The three parts of Hebrews 10:29 are (1) “hath trodden under foot the Son of God”, (2) “hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing” and (3) “hath done despite (to insult or treat shamefully) unto the Spirit of grace”. Insulting God sounds like the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit where they are no longer interested in the things of God.

Can these three things be in contrast to some of the previous verses in the chapter?

“…wherewith he was sanctified…” sounds like they cleansed themselves externally to me and didn’t cleanse themselves internally. We need to have our hearts sprinkled internally and have our bodies washed internally:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G37&t=KJV

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Is Hebrews 10:29 contrasted with Hebrews 10:22, 23 and 24?

My questions are, why aren't they cleansed and why does God remember their sin?

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

My final question is, why aren't they perfected? Did they not believe?

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I'm not dating Jesus but if someone broke up with me and I said I'm going to go out and sin wilfully (Heb. 10:26) then am I really saying the same thing that I'm sanctified unto?

1 John 1:9 If we confess (g3670 ὁμολογέω homologeō) our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

homologeō
1) to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent
2) to concede
a) not to refuse, to promise


insulted the Spirit of grace? Can even the reprobate be temporarily sanctified and in the covenant? So, we have those who have shared in the Holy Spirit and those who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant falling away and insulting the Spirit of grace! Sharing in the Holy Spirit and being sanctified are experiences for believers only.
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Potiphar's house was blessed because of Joseph.

I can see someone using the same argument for believing child baptism sanctifies them but I'm not at all saying you do.

The difference, Chuck, is that these were sanctified by the blood of the covenant. That is a privilege for believers only. How can a non-believer, void of the Spirit and bound for hell, insult the Spirit of grace?

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Can even the reprobate be temporarily sanctified and in the covenant?

The same way they were sanctified by the blood of the old covenant. They didn't believe. It is sort of like community churches. They go to church because there is community there and not because they believe. They go to church because their parents went to church but they didn't change. They said the sinner's prayer so to speak but it is by believing that you are saved:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The question is: Can you cry crocodile tears and be saved? Can you be in anathema and be saved?

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do people really believe or are they just crying crocodile tears? It is easy to say you believe. I had a professor lie to me and she did not at all live like she believed. How can I tell you whether a person believes or not? I can't. What kind of person are they after they say they believe and which direction do they walk? The wheat looks just like the tares. We can't tell but God can tell. But I would place my belief on the fact that such people are insincere or lieing. People are fickle. According to my sociology textbook, people lie on the average of 200 times a day and I have researched this independently.

Vine says the verb rendered "sin" is "in the present continuous tense, signifying, not an act or a series of acts, but a condition." which is apostasy.
Vine goes on to say "The wore ekousios, 'wilfully', means deliberately, with settled intention, not by a sudden impulse of the will. The word is used elsewhere in the N.T. only in 1 Pet. 5:12."

Vine says "Receiving the knowledge of the truth is simply the mental apprehension of the doctrines of the Christian faith.
"When the Hebrews now spoken of made a profession of accepting Christianity, they renounced the sacrifices for sin under the Law. But now, in turning away from their professed faith, they renounced the sacrifice of Christ."

J. Vernon McGee puts it this way: If a person rejects the truth of Christ's death for sin, there is no other sacrifice for sin available, and there is no other way to come to God."

Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The reason being they have to sacrifice every year and it never took sins away.

Chuck, sanctification is for believers only.

Also, [SUP]20[/SUP]If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [SUP]21[/SUP]It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. ~2 Peter 20-21

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is (g2076 ἐστί esti, 3rd person singular "to be"), and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It isn't just enough to have the facts. It is important to believe that God is to be.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;"-Philippians 3:10

The word for "know" here is ginōskō which means to feel, to perceive, understand. It is an experiential knowledge of having a reality with Jesus.

Nicodemus said,"..Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God:.." (John 3:2)

The word for "know" here is eido and it means to have knowledge of. Nicodemus was saying that they have all the information they need. But having all the information doesn't make you "born again" (John 3:3).

Is knowing about Jesus enough? You decide:

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so.
Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Therefore I believe the "know" in Hebrews 10:26 is just a knowledge of the facts. Like how we fall asleep at the facts in Math class. We need an experiential knowledge of Jesus as Philippians 3:10 says:

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;"-Philippians 3:10

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Knowledge is not enough. With the heart man believeth unto righteousness. The heart will always make a convert of the mind.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back