Technically, we're not saved by faith or grace either; we're saved by GOD. So really it's pointless to play these word games. Just like faith, work is necessary because without it faith is dead. So work is not the issue, its motivation is.
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Technically, we're not saved by faith or grace either; we're saved by GOD. So really it's pointless to play these word games. Just like faith, work is necessary because without it faith is dead. So work is not the issue, its motivation is.
no it is not pointless to play word games. when you say that you have to earn or maintain your salvation by working for it, that is lie. plain and simple. gift. salvation is a gift. you don't earn gifts.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Scripture thought it was important enough to say we are saved by grace through faith not works. That it was not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us, That God loves us so much, he sent his son, that all who trust him will be saved (eternal life)
So yeah, I think it does matter, in fact it matters alot. And the fact you say it does not says alot.
2 Timothy 3:12, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."
You mean there are Christians that don't live godly? There are those in Christ that live carnally, worldly? Look to the church at Corinth. These believers were in Christ, yet living carnal, worldly lives.
You mean there are Christians that don't live godly? There are those in Christ that live carnally, worldly? Look to the church at Corinth. These believers were in Christ, yet living carnal, worldly lives.
dude, you say it like 78 times a day. the falsehood is your constant double-speak. you say " I don't say works salvation" then say, oh if you don't do or not do this or that, you lose it. no falsehood here.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Maybe because you keep saying it, though not in exact words..
When you say "WORKS MUST BE" or you will not be saved, and add all the works of righteousness like baptism you teach we MUST DO.
then you teach works and earning salvation.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Its gonna be sad when he tries to tell God all his works, and how he proved his love for God through doing all these things in his name, And God says, Depart for I never knew you.
so any people think they know God because they do all these works. When they do not know God at all. Nor does God know them (personally as in a father son relationship)
I am not playing word games. Ephesians 2:8,9 is crystal clear that we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part) and not by works. "Faith without works is dead" does not mean that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. It takes a living faith to produce good works, just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit.
The point that James is making is that if someone SAYS/CLAIMS they have faith (James 2:14), but they have no works (given time to produce them - James 2:15-16) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Through your misinterpretation in James chapter 2, you put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.
If your motivation is "must produce works in order to become saved" then you have the wrong motivation. We are saved through faith/created in Christ Jesus FIRST then UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Our motivation to do good works should be love and gratitude for the Lord for saving us and loving us and not pride and expectation that we will be saved based on the merits of our works.
And that is why we need to content for the faith of the gospel of the grace of Christ only for salvation ...and to pray for them.... that God would grant them repentance to see the beauty of the love and grace that is in Christ.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
[SUP]26 [/SUP] and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
Keep trying. Maybe one day you'll learn how to present a point that's not based on fallacy.
Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but not the essence of our faith and not the means of our salvation. We show our faith and our love by our works. SHOW, not establish.
Those in Christ who live godly will suffer persecution. Those in Christ who are not living godly will not suffer persecution. Please explain this to me. Please explain the church at Corinth and their worldly, carnal living. You refuse to address the points.
Work most definitely is the essence of our faith. Faith that doesn't work isn't faith. Furthermore, Paul admonished his churches to do good work for the very purpose of establishing their hearts in the faith. The love Paul is talking about here is action, not a feeling.
and [may] the Lord [cause] you to increase and to abound in love for one another and for all, just as also we [do] for you, so that your hearts may be established blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. Amen. 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
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roaringkitten
Guest
That's what the enemy does, it just redefines Bible words while making the deceived person "think" they are saved. It's really a subtle way of Satan attacking the free gift of God! Good to hear what your background was and that you escaped that prison religion by the grace of God! There is hope for everyone, even the most deceived ones!
That is false. This is where you cross the line into salvation by works. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith AND works. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church [and still and unbeliever], I erroneously thought that faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works, which is completely false. Faith is faith and works are works.
Faith that doesn't produce any works demonstrates that it's a dead faith, but that does not mean that works are the essence of faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No works at all demonstrate there is no root.
The idea is that their love be enlarged and made abundant, taken together giving the force of "increase to overflowing." The Greek word for "establish" here (4741) (sterizo [word study] from histemi = to stand as in 1Pe 5:12-note "stand firm in" the true grace of God) means to make firm or solid, to set fast, to fix firmly in a place, to establish (make firm or stable), to cause to be inwardly firm or committed, to strengthen. The basic idea of the verb sterizo is that of stabilizing something by providing a support or buttress (a projecting structure of masonry or wood for supporting or giving stability to a wall or building), so that it will not totter.
Thayer's Definition
to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
to strengthen, make firm
to render constant, confirm, one's mind
To strengthen goes beyond the initial origin of having been saved through faith in Christ. Good works/multiple acts of obedience are a DEMONSTRATION of our faith and not the origin of it. You seem to interpret 1 Thessalonians 3:13 as if our faith remains dead until we reach final sanctification in this lifetime, then the origin of faith begins and we are finally saved.
Thayer's Definition
to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
to strengthen, make firm
to render constant, confirm, one's mind
To strengthen goes beyond the initial origin of having been saved through faith in Christ. Good works/multiple acts of obedience are a DEMONSTRATION of our faith and not the origin of it. You seem to interpret 1 Thessalonians 3:13 as if our faith remains dead until we reach final sanctification in this lifetime, then the origin of faith begins and we are finally saved.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
oops I forgot.
Works are proof Because God is a little weak, He needs to know, because he can not see our hearts.
It is not that God empowers our work, and by his HS, work proceeds from a new nature and bad works are slowed because it is no longer our nature, that nature is now dead and has no power and does not give us the same sweet tasting fruit we thought it did before we were born again new creatures. But now puts a bad taste in our mouth..
Paul prayed that the Ephesians would know the love of God and be filled up with His fullness. Love is a fruit of our new creation in Christ - not that it establishes our salvation. We have "love" because we are saved but we need to grow in it and thus it establishes our hearts.
Ephesians 3:16-19 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
We have the love of God in us but as a fruit it needs to grow.
Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Doing works does not "make" us saved from hell. Jesus' blood saved us - not our selves and what we have done or will do. Now we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.
2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Ephesians 3:16-19 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
We have the love of God in us but as a fruit it needs to grow.
Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Doing works does not "make" us saved from hell. Jesus' blood saved us - not our selves and what we have done or will do. Now we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.
2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.