Once Saved Always Saved?

[iamsoandso]

yes as christ said "let the dead be dead still,and the living living",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

what do you think death is?

 

[notIbutChrist]

Those in torment where they saved at the cross?

yes as christ said "let the dead be dead still,and the living living",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I think you are going to have a hard time getting people to buy into that one soandso

 

[notIbutChrist]

from reading these posts, sounds like zone is trying to justify her own sin

Many do the same. Rather than admiting and repenting of their own sin, they want to accuse others of being sinful as well. As if that would excuse their own sin, or acquit them when they face judgement.

 

[iamsoandso]

"they",,,,,,i watch them every night ,,,,,,,,,,,,,"they",,,,,,debate it,,,,,,they try to figure it out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the verb of them is to "find it",,,,,,,,,,,,they,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"they" dont know it is why they work so hard to convey it.

 

[Zilla64007]

i didn't say you were methodist. you're in the Holiness crowd. do you believe in the Second work of grace/Second baptism that burns out the sin nature and you're now sinless?

i recently did a study on this...

the only difference between Classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism is the concept of Christian perfection.

John Wesley said one can BECOME sinless
James Arminius said to strive for sinlessness

im convinced that John Wesley taught this because in his life, he had strict rules for himself... and yes, methods, on how to live life. because of his own ways and methods of living life, he probably thought it possible to become sinless... I have to gravely disagree with John Wesley, and examine his own life. John Wesley himself had a divorce, indeed two of them (if i'm not mistaken)... John Wesley, like every other human being, had his own problems. James did too... James Arminius said to strive for perfection... and while we will fail from time to time, it shows the grace and forgiveness of God, AND shows the power of God because we cannot do it on our own.

I stand by both scripture and Arminius in saying strive for perfection, even if you do fail from time to time... we are not perfect. No one is perfect or sinless. the only man that was is Jesus. The only time we will become perfect is when He returns and finishes the work He started in us through our faith

 

[iamsoandso]

"faced",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if the almighty god sent his son to the earth to die becouse we could not be redeemed unto him ,,,,,,,,,,,,,then at the cross "we faced judgement" and his judgment was 'grace"

 

[iamsoandso]

"one of the days of the son of man you will seek and you will not find it"

 

[tribesman]

This is a true statement, but if you promote OSAS aren't you, yourself an antinomian

Let's first get some terminology correct here. Antinomianism doesn't necessarily believe that once a person is saved, he is always saved, no matter what he does. Antinomianism is the belief that christians should not use the law of God as a rule for their lives. Antinomians always have another standard (than the law of God) for discerning and measuring sin and righteousness.

Assurance in salvation has nothing to do whatsoever with antinomianism. Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. The fact that God has chosen and predestined a covenant people for Himself, securing their salvation by the means of the work of Christ (His atoning blood and imputed righteousness) is not unrighteousness. To the very contrary, this is the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. Paul said that those who are ignorant of this righteousness are lost, which is proven by their going about to establish a righteousness of their own.

You see, the main problem of synergism is not that it tells us how man can displease God by his actions, that is not incorrect. What is incorrect, and a heresy to that, is that they believe that man can please God, to the point that he is justified and made righteous, by his actions. They reject the righteousness of God and put their trust in their own works or experiences as warrant for their right standing with God. Just as did the apostate israelites of old, and the pharisees, they follow after the law of righteousness, but cannot attain it, because they seek after it in their own works, not by faith. They do not believe the gospel, in which God's righteousness is revealed.

All synergists believe that man has at least some tiny little part to fulfill in either his justification, sanctification or glorification. It's just a matter of how big this part is. Some of them believe that this part comes after regeneration, which they say is God's work, others believe that this part is to be fulfilled already even by natural man before regeneration. Whichever of these beliefs one holds to, then one inevitably holds to the belief that salvation is conditioned on the work of man, not the work of Christ. Those who on the contrary believe the gospel knows that their right standing with God is not conditioned on their positive conduct in any degree or way. They know it is conditioned on the imputed righteousness and blood atonement of Christ alone.

God did not only give us the law to expose our sin but also as a rule for our lives, to show us how we are to respect and love Him. We should strive to obey God's commandments in our actions as well as our thoughts, out of gratefulness and love for Him. We love and delight in God's law and our faith brings good works, we pursue holiness in conduct, we strive to walk as Christ walked, God's commandments are not burdensome for us.

However, any positives in these regards are not our own works by any stretch, nor the result of us co-operating with God, they are all the fruit of God's work, of His will and for His glory alone. There is not a single tiny room for boasting or glory for us. And we are only motivated to approach this rightly and acceptably if we understand that none of this will bring us any righteousness, keep any righteousness, but is to be sought for only because we are already counted as righteous. For the sake of Christ.

Rom.8

[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9

[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

[30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[iamsoandso]

heres a better way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you ,,,,,that is are a body,,,,,and in you is your spirit,,,,,,,,,your body is a 'faithfull servent" that is your hands dont"throw your food over your head",,,,,,,,,your spirit says to your body "put it in my mouth" and it does it,,,,,,,,,,,,problem is your spirit somtimes says "lust",,,,,,somtimes "steal",,,,,,,,,"envy",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,problem is "if my body is the temple of god" that is ,,,,,,,,,,,god is in me,,,my temple of god and you say to your body go up to the "temple of god at soandso" and "envy" well then your body being a faithfull servent will go to the temple of god at "soand so" and offer up evil fruit at the temple of god..........................
on the other hand ,,,,,,,,if your spirit says to your body go to the "temple of god at soandso" and do the work of love,,,,,,,,,,,then you have offered good fruits at the temple of god.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if your spirit said to your body to offer the works of "love" at any of these temples of god,,,,,,,,,,,,it has confessed all wisdom,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is the will of the father is "love",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he wants you to do his will,,,,,,,,,,which is "love",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oft times though,,,,,,,,,,,you will not,,,, so the spirit confessing also confessing an mesiah,,,,,,,,,in redemtion for you in this,,,,,,,,,,,,,yet any of you saying to your temple "go and offer the fruit of love" have with your spirits lips uttered mine fathers name,,wich is his will and all knollage ,,,,,many have come for the name of the father,,,,for if said in blasphamy taketh apart my fathers kingdom,,,,,,,,and they say unto their temple to "hate' and go about laying "hathfull" fruits at the temple of god at me and you,,,,,,,,,but unto you,,,who say to your spirits lips the name of my father you are also the son of the same and as the son of the father is called after his fathers name your name is written in the stone of mine father and it is your name.

 

[iamsoandso]

it is impossibe for you to say this name out of the intermost 'fein" of the temple,,,,,,,,,,,,you cannot say it in english,or german,,,or any launguage of men but only the spirit.............when the spirit came into me ,,,,,,,,,this was what was left in me this was the part of the father that remained,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,love,,,,,,,,,,,,,it was the whole matter given to me to give to you and it was everything...........

 

[iamsoandso]

one of the things i said was not a quote from the bible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which one??????????

 

[iamsoandso]

sweet dreams to you all good night

 

[Katy-follower]

As for the prayer. (many call sinner's prayer), I do believe many who said it have never been saved. The reason is not because they did not say the prayer. But the fact they truely did not have faith in what they were asking. They did not have a repentant heart. Many say it I believe as a stop gap measure "Just in case this is true" but really do not believe they need it. We know these people by the lack of change in life.

I totally agree with what you're saying. I took my Catholic husband to a bible church when we were away for the weekend. The pastor had the non Christians repeat a prayer if they were not saved. I think he said the prayer, but I've not seen any spiritual change in him. I've been looking for the fruits and the "inner light glow" but I don't see it. I can't judge, but I just don't see it. My husband does have a controlling personality though, so deep down is it possible for him to submit to God?? This could be a problem for him.

As your salvation is by the power of God. We can't earn it. If we can't earn it we can't lose it. Saying you can lose it. is saying you must earn it. Which means it is of works. not of grace.

I completely agree. We can't lose our salvation.

God also purges his children, like a father would discipline his son.

Another thing - people do backslide, but they are still saved. I backslid in my teens, but came back to God this year. I think backsliding can happen if you're not strong in the faith, and you drift back into the world, with all it's distractions. Since coming back to God, I'm getting stronger and really think I missed out on the growth side when I was in my teens. I think God does sometimes let us backslide if that's what we choose, but he brings us back again. With me, he brought me back with a bang.

Anyway, I will always thank God for what he's done for me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you understood true biblical grace, you would not claim that we as believers must continue in sin.

I never said that did I. Why do you keep twisting things??

I quoted John. He said if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves. Your argument is with John not me.

why are you arguing with John?

Grace is grace. Biblical grace is no different than non biblical grace we or anyone gives to someone else. it is unearned favor.

1. Salvation is by grace through faith. we can never earn it.
2. Once you have it. you cna work and earn reward. But you still truly do not deserve it. All you deserve is damnation. why you think you could ever earn eternal life with God just amazes me!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A needed reminder indeed. Interestingly enough, if one studies the law, one will see how it implies that man is sinful and commands that man receives the only valid means by which God will deal with his sin (i e, the gospel). Those who do not trust and obey this, will be cut-off.

There is actually only one way for enthusiasts to be able to claim that they are "not sinning". And that is to go the same way that the pharisees went. They have to twist, redefine and ultimately reject God's law, and replace it with another standard, which is possible for men to live up to. Of course this is at root lawlessness, not a strive to be obedient to God's commandments. It is ironic that this kind of legalism actually is antinomian in nature. Like I said in another post: one has to acknowledge God's law properly. Not all people will let God's law judge them or accept what the law says about them. You can see this deception at work in the redefinition of sin and in a superficial sin concept. And, again, this is of course always also related to its opposite - the redefinition of righteousness and justification. Which actually means justifying sin.

In short there are usually two main ways that this is done. One is to indulge in sin and yet say that this is not sin or that this sinning is actually grace at work (the heresy of libertinism). The other one is to claim to have no sin, and when confronted with the law of yet having sin still say: "I don't call that sin" (the heresy of sinless perfectionism). Both these deceptions are antinomian heresies. Therefore both are ignorant of the righteousness of God and none of them believe the gospel.

You got it. So many are decieved.

I think of when Jesus was talking to the man, and he asked him if he obeyed the law. The man said yes since birth. Jesus said sell all your stuff and follow me. The man was saddened and left. He broke the first ocmmandment "Love the lord your god above all else. He loved his things more than God. and he did nt even see he was breaking this command. and thus was guilty and needed Christ.

People who claim to be righteous do not see their own sin. All they see is the sin of other.s and compair themselves to them and say they are good. God must love them. They refuse to look at God as the standard. where they would see they are unrighteous. Even today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once saved always saved is a heresy. Jesus nor any of the diciples ever taught that. In fact, the Apostle Paul taught us not to even judge our own selves and to "Judge NOTHING before the time". He said IT IS THE LORD WHO JUDGES ME.


1Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


At the ending he's saying that those who judge themselves as righteous praise themselves. He's teaching us that it is GOD who gives the praise not our own selves at the last judgment.

Eternal life is given, It is eternal. If it is not eternal and can be lost. They Christ lied. He told nicodemus there was but one thing one had to have to recieve eternal life. Believe in the name of the son of God. He did not say be baptised, Go to church, Take the eucharist. Do penance, etc etc to be saved. He said have faith in the word. Him, and the promise he offers based on his son.

those saying you can earn salvation are trying to take a part in salvation. they are also trying to take credit. for all their good deeds, sacraments, and works, and taking credit away from God.

As paul said. How can you get in by grace. but then be perfected by works. Paul calls all those who try to perfect (keep) their salvation by works fools.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's only your interpretation on what Jesus said, its not what He meant. He meant to say that if you are in Jesus' hands, then when the tempter and the deceiver comes to steal you he will not be able to.

Wow. Lets take a look at what it says!

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

You see the context? The context is eternal life. And never again parishing (spiritual not physical)

Where do you come up with this stuff? How can you read the word and still listen to your churches ridiculous interpretations like the one you just gave which completely destroys context?

 

[zone]

from reading these posts, sounds like zone is trying to justify her own sin

that's quite an assertion zilla.
and really the only fall-back synergists/holiness folks have.

do you really believe i would promote sin and justify my own sin? quite the opposite, though apparently you've decided it's true, even though you don't know me. and you're willing to say so in a public forum. "sounds like". hmmm.

that's okay though. i understand why things like this are said.

~

the real issue though, is i'm actually pretty clear on what the Law says, zilla. and how much God abhors sin. even one.

and i'm reasonably certain it took Jesus to come all the way from Glory to fulfill The Law on our behalf, and purchase us by His death.

i wonder why His perfectly sinless life under The Law was required?

is that Righteous Life imputed or reckoned to our account? or are we empowered to be perfectly obedient and sinless just like Jesus....if so i suppose He isn't really an High Priest forever. what need?

love zone.

 

[notIbutChrist]

is that Righteous Life imputed or reckoned to our account? or are we empowered to be perfectly obedient and sinless just like Jesus....if so i suppose He isn't really an High Priest forever. what need?

love zone.

Seeing as scripture plainly states that we who are in Christ are no able to fulfill the standards of the law, then you have made a bold statement here. I would go as far as calling it blasphemy