Only one true church in the bible.

[Bookends]

Many of us seem to think that when we came to Christ for the first time we weren't exactly the perfect Christian. Nor do I believe we can become a perfect Christian, but one of the aspects Christian life is spiritual growth and relationship with our Lord God. Not everyone starts off or ends up with equal measure of spiritual wisdom, knowledge, faith, and experience. This is easy to forget. Not all of us left our childish ways, we all started off with milk, so please lets no be quick to write everything off.

 

[Shava]

Many of us seem to think that when we came to Christ for the first time we weren't exactly the perfect Christian. Nor do I believe we can become a perfect Christian, but one of the aspects Christian life is spiritual growth and relationship with our Lord God. Not everyone starts off or ends up with equal measure of spiritual wisdom, knowledge, faith, and experience. This is easy to forget. Not all of us left our childish ways, we all started off with milk, so please lets no be quick to write everything off.

I agree, that's why it's so important to inform those that are still on the milk or spiritually weak for whatever reason to let them know if their off track in a way that is fatal spiritually. Things like the use of instruments in worship is something that I work on with other brothers who have gone astray by believing instruments are permitted in worship, which is a fatal mistake. The blame starts with the elders as they failed to do their job by being persuaded and spiritually weak in doing their job. Many people have been lost because of this, for instance, when a visitor asks about worship and we tell them that the CoC abstains from instruments and that visitor finds out that the CoC down the block uses instruments, that visitor ends up going to a man made church or a CoC that uses instruments, then you have a problem that could end up being spiritually fatal, all because twenty years ago some members decided to use instruments, this is a problem that will cause many to become lost, confused and makes it difficult if not impossible to save souls, just because MAN has decided to do it their way, just because of a few spiritually lazy elders allowed it.

 

[Shava]

From one of the "evil" Christian rock bands.

Casting Crowns - Does Anybody Hear Her - YouTube

A song about a girl searching for hope in all the wrong ways, But because of the way she dressed, the people she hung out with, the places she went, The church ignored her, Mocked her, Judged her. When they should have been seeking her, Finding her, And giving her the hope God wants for us all.

To many churches do this, it is a sad state the church is in

My band played this in church, a powerful message for all to hear..

Although my dad would still judge me, because I played the "evil" electric guitar!!

It's what God wants, not what we want, and he doesn't condone or authorize this type of music in worship. He does authorize singing, singing only because this is the closest you can get to God in spiritual oneness between creator and created. When you add instruments you are adding what man has made, not what God has made, and that's where the problem exists. No where do you see instruments authorized in the New Testament and that is the era we are in, so your authorization has to come from the N.T. The authorization for singing is there, Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16

 

[Shava]

Funny, the name Church of God occurs

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

eleven times and the Church of Christ occurs...

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

once. If the Church of Christ is the only true church, one would have thought it would have been mentioned by name a little more prominently.

Church of God is a name used also, but the problem lies with how the Church of God worships God, which isn't according to the bible. Just like the Churches of Christ who now have started to use instruments, they to are now not worshipping as the bible says, so they to are the same as the Church of God in as they both are worshipping in false doctrine.

 

[Shava]

Excuse me. I was baptized about fifteen years ago and I have a personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. Do not make assumptions and don't question my relationship with him because you don't know me at all. Do you even believe in the gifts of the holy spirit?

Such as performing miracles, laying on of hands, speaking in tongues, which means speaking in someone's dialect, such as being able to speak a language that you didn't previously know how to do, are these what you're talking about, if so, these were done away with when the last Apostle died. So obviously my answer is no.

 

[notuptome]

The whole thing seems mute to me. God does not save churches. God saves individuals. God does not save because of works or manner of worship. God saves by grace received through faith. God does not condemn anyone because they use musical instruments in their gatherings. The whole world stands condemned before God because of sin. The only remedy for sin is the blood of Christ shed at Calvary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Shava]

Its the double standard all legalisms have.

They seem to excuse things if they can not explain it away, or if they are struggling with it.

They reject the baptism of God, add the baptism of men commanded by God, and think they are more holy than others.

There probloem is they can;t see the sin in their own lives that ensnares them. Like the pharisee, they seem to be holy (to themselves) but in reality, they are as black as they were before they started to have faith in their works.

So what you're saying is that this young man went to hell because God can't make exceptions that have been proven to be true that the young man wasn't able to be baptized, and you call this a double standard?

 

[Shava]

The only one true church is the Low (or evangelical) Church of England "..... and Lo, I am with you and even until the end of the age....."

Romans 16:16

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So what you're saying is that this young man went to hell because God can't make exceptions that have been proven to be true that the young man wasn't able to be baptized, and you call this a double standard?

No. I am saying he did not go to hell because baptism is not required. Man has tried to insert baptism as a pre-requisite for salvation (making it a works based Gospel) not God.

Your the one having a double standard. People are saved today the same way they always have been, By grace through faith. It has NEVER been by works, God did not start works after Christs death by adding a pre-requisite no one ever had to follow.

 

[Elizabeth619]

i think you should spend a little more time in the world and not in that little white church where everyone agrees that they are saints and the music playing dancers that surround them are hell bound sinners. maybe i've seen a little too much of the pain in the world to believe that god is offended by someone playing a piano while giving him praise. read your bible and pray. then get to your feet and look at the kind of things jesus saw as he walked the dusty roads of roman palestine. if my playing "jesus loves me" on my harmonica to a bunch of muslim kids here in china offends god then then he must not be watching things here very closely.

Uhhhhhhhhhhh...... ???????????

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's what God wants, not what we want, and he doesn't condone or authorize this type of music in worship.

well thanks for your opinion.

But I will follow God not men.

You continue to hold back God and what he is able to do. You will answer to God.

Better yet, Stop trying to earn your right to heaven, And recieve his grace gift (from your attitude and judging and demanding works, I have serious doubts you have yet to do that)

 

[john832]

The whole thing seems mute to me. God does not save churches. God saves individuals. God does not save because of works or manner of worship. God saves by grace received through faith. God does not condemn anyone because they use musical instruments in their gatherings. The whole world stands condemned before God because of sin. The only remedy for sin is the blood of Christ shed at Calvary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

My point. The word for church is not an organization or a particular sect or denomination, it is...

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

The called out ones, the ones whom the Father has called...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Elizabeth619]

well thanks for your opinion.

But I will follow God not men.

You continue to hold back God and what he is able to do. You will answer to God.

Better yet, Stop trying to earn your right to heaven, And recieve his grace gift (from your attitude and judging and demanding works, I have serious doubts you have yet to do that)

You hit the nail on the head. "earn your right to heaven".
If one looks at these prohibitions as earning their right to heaven there is a problem. Theres nothing wrong with avoiding instruments, dancing, ect. I seriously don't believe God created people with musical talent and then said "its wrong". God created all things, and he didn't put anything one this planet to torture or tempt us. Satan did, and when we use things in ways that aren't pleasing to God is when we get in trouble. When things start to take you over is when we need to step back and reevaluate.

Shave, I am not trying to be hateful to you, but you said in a post several pages back that you are here to "make people understand". You cannot "make" people understand. People have to be willing to listen. Did anyone make you become a Christian? OR was that your choice because you heard the gospel and believed on your own will?
Coming to an internet forum and being as assertive as you have been always backfires. Even IF you were 100% correct on everything your delivery was bad. This is coming from one CoCer to another. I know what the scriptures says, and I know where you are coming from, and for the general part of the thread I agree with you BUT your attitude is condemning and not kind. It is self righteous and not humble, and it is rather mean instead of compassionate. Think about all the things the CoC doesn't support. We are pretty hard on ourselves don't you think? I know many in the CoC that work so hard not to mess up within the CoC they sin in other places and think nothing about it.
Instruments can distract you from God. I previously explained that and don't really feel like getting back into that,

Dancing is ok, but pressing ones body against another can lead to being guided by hormones. I get that.

My dad was killed by a drunk driver so naturally I am against drunks, but this is also a good example of how our body is a temple. Excessive drinking is harmful and deadly. So is eating. How many overweight people are in the CoC? What about medication? Many of us have taken meds to control pain. The doc prescribes painkillers after surgery and suddenly it is morally ok to take them, yet how many people become addicted?

The point I am trying to make is alcohol is not bad. Dancing is not bad. Instruments are not bad. But when you become a slave to these things and they control you is when they are bad. When you remove God from your mind to fulfill human needs is when you have screwed up.

We are here to lead others to Christ. Not tell others how we are more righteous.

 

[notuptome]

My point. The word for church is not an organization or a particular sect or denomination, it is...

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

The called out ones, the ones whom the Father has called...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I would include John 12:32 If Christ is lifted up He will draw all men unto Himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Shava]

No. I am saying he did not go to hell because baptism is not required. Man has tried to insert baptism as a pre-requisite for salvation (making it a works based Gospel) not God.

Your the one having a double standard. People are saved today the same way they always have been, By grace through faith. It has NEVER been by works, God did not start works after Christs death by adding a pre-requisite no one ever had to follow.

So actually you call being baptized works, some work. You are not saved until you are baptized. The problem is obvious that you feel that all one has to do is say they believe and the command to be baptized isn't a command, right. Then why be baptized at all? Peter didn't tell them to just believe, he told them to believe and be baptized, that means just what it says, it takes both Not only believe, but to make sure you understood the importance of believing and being baptized Mark tells you so you shouldn't make the mistake of just believing that he adds AND IS, which means both are equally important and both are to be done immediately, and still people will not accept that you are to believe and then right after believing, be baptized. The Great Commission says to do both, right?

 

[Shava]

You hit the nail on the head. "earn your right to heaven".
If one looks at these prohibitions as earning their right to heaven there is a problem. Theres nothing wrong with avoiding instruments, dancing, ect. I seriously don't believe God created people with musical talent and then said "its wrong". God created all things, and he didn't put anything one this planet to torture or tempt us. Satan did, and when we use things in ways that aren't pleasing to God is when we get in trouble. When things start to take you over is when we need to step back and reevaluate.

Shave, I am not trying to be hateful to you, but you said in a post several pages back that you are here to "make people understand". You cannot "make" people understand. People have to be willing to listen. Did anyone make you become a Christian? OR was that your choice because you heard the gospel and believed on your own will?
Coming to an internet forum and being as assertive as you have been always backfires. Even IF you were 100% correct on everything your delivery was bad. This is coming from one CoCer to another. I know what the scriptures says, and I know where you are coming from, and for the general part of the thread I agree with you BUT your attitude is condemning and not kind. It is self righteous and not humble, and it is rather mean instead of compassionate. Think about all the things the CoC doesn't support. We are pretty hard on ourselves don't you think? I know many in the CoC that work so hard not to mess up within the CoC they sin in other places and think nothing about it.
Instruments can distract you from God. I previously explained that and don't really feel like getting back into that,

Dancing is ok, but pressing ones body against another can lead to being guided by hormones. I get that.

My dad was killed by a drunk driver so naturally I am against drunks, but this is also a good example of how our body is a temple. Excessive drinking is harmful and deadly. So is eating. How many overweight people are in the CoC? What about medication? Many of us have taken meds to control pain. The doc prescribes painkillers after surgery and suddenly it is morally ok to take them, yet how many people become addicted?

The point I am trying to make is alcohol is not bad. Dancing is not bad. Instruments are not bad. But when you become a slave to these things and they control you is when they are bad. When you remove God from your mind to fulfill human needs is when you have screwed up.

We are here to lead others to Christ. Not tell others how we are more righteous.

This all that I am saying, so what is your problem? You say that I hate instruments, which I don't, you say I hate dancing, I don't hate dancing, which I happen to like some forms of dancing, but pay attention to what I'm saying, it's all about in worship, worship, worship is where I have the problem, now do you understand. I am to the point, that is my way because all to long people like yourself have sat by and pampered people when they were wrong instead of standing up for God, just like you did with instruments, so don't tell me how to communicate when at least I'm out there not pampering people when their believing a lie, I tell them the truth. I been doing this for forty years and I may not be liked, but that's ok, neither was Jesus or Paul, as a matter of fact they were in a sense called being mean in what they were doing, so you do what you got to do and I'll do what I have to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So actually you call being baptized works, some work.

No, I did not call it that God did.

The OT similar tradition was circumcision. Now men did not go around circumcising themselves. It was usually done by a priest or medical person (oh and buy the way, I am sure they gave them wine or strong drink to knock them out so they could handle the pain) And Paul called that a work. Even though you did not actually do anything.

actually you did. You had to go to the place to be baptized In pauls day, this could have been walking miles and miles to get to a body of Water. So it is a work.

Both Baptize, and Circumcize REPRESENT cleansing. Which we are told occurs by the hand of God.

your replacing the work of God in our washing of regeneration with the work of men This is called blasphemy

You are not saved until you are baptized.

Your right. Just not the baptism you are thinking of. The moment I place my faith in God, and he accepts my faith, I am immediately baptized by God himself, and through that baptism, I am washed and regenerated (titus 3: 5) Not many days/months or however long later one get immersed in water.

The problem is obvious that you feel that all one has to do is say they believe and the command to be baptized isn't a command, right. Then why be baptized at all? Peter didn't tell them to just believe, he told them to believe and be baptized, that means just what it says, it takes both Not only believe, but to make sure you understood the importance of believing and being baptized Mark tells you so you shouldn't make the mistake of just believing that he adds AND IS, which means both are equally important and both are to be done immediately, and still people will not accept that you are to believe and then right after believing, be baptized. The Great Commission says to do both, right?

1. The great commission says to make disciples. THEN baptize them, they are already saved and washed when they are baptized.
2. Peter did not tell anyone to repent AND be baptized (that is a flaw in the english text) He told EVERYONE to repent, then told those who had RECIEVED remission of sin to be baptized.

Stop looking at your english bible, and listening to men. And seek out the truth.

 

[Shava]

You hit the nail on the head. "earn your right to heaven".
If one looks at these prohibitions as earning their right to heaven there is a problem. Theres nothing wrong with avoiding instruments, dancing, ect. I seriously don't believe God created people with musical talent and then said "its wrong". God created all things, and he didn't put anything one this planet to torture or tempt us. Satan did, and when we use things in ways that aren't pleasing to God is when we get in trouble. When things start to take you over is when we need to step back and reevaluate.

Shave, I am not trying to be hateful to you, but you said in a post several pages back that you are here to "make people understand". You cannot "make" people understand. People have to be willing to listen. Did anyone make you become a Christian? OR was that your choice because you heard the gospel and believed on your own will?
Coming to an internet forum and being as assertive as you have been always backfires. Even IF you were 100% correct on everything your delivery was bad. This is coming from one CoCer to another. I know what the scriptures says, and I know where you are coming from, and for the general part of the thread I agree with you BUT your attitude is condemning and not kind. It is self righteous and not humble, and it is rather mean instead of compassionate. Think about all the things the CoC doesn't support. We are pretty hard on ourselves don't you think? I know many in the CoC that work so hard not to mess up within the CoC they sin in other places and think nothing about it.
Instruments can distract you from God. I previously explained that and don't really feel like getting back into that,

Dancing is ok, but pressing ones body against another can lead to being guided by hormones. I get that.

My dad was killed by a drunk driver so naturally I am against drunks, but this is also a good example of how our body is a temple. Excessive drinking is harmful and deadly. So is eating. How many overweight people are in the CoC? What about medication? Many of us have taken meds to control pain. The doc prescribes painkillers after surgery and suddenly it is morally ok to take them, yet how many people become addicted?

The point I am trying to make is alcohol is not bad. Dancing is not bad. Instruments are not bad. But when you become a slave to these things and they control you is when they are bad. When you remove God from your mind to fulfill human needs is when you have screwed up.

We are here to lead others to Christ. Not tell others how we are more righteous.

Have you ever seen a child with very poor clothing on and the parent comes in the store and buys alcohol, but the child gets nothing. Every time a person goes and buys alcohol you give this and other children a negative effect for them to believe it's ok instead of letting them know it's not. Have you seen someone drink mouthwash because they didn't have anything else to drink. I worked as a Paramedic for many years and also at a in patient mental health facility and I can assure you that alcohol is a destroyer of life, and this you say is ok when God doesn't approve of it at all, he condemns it, and on top of this your father was killed by a drunk driver and you still say it's ok, you are living a lie. Paul and Jesus wasn't likedby manyl, as a matter of fact you could say they were considered, how you say, mean.
. If you realize the souls that have been lost from what has happen in the last twenty years with instruments being allowed in some you would understand why I'm so to the point, again John the Baptist was another person who was to the point. I care about people is why I am on here.

 

[Shava]

No, I did not call it that God did.

The OT similar tradition was circumcision. Now men did not go around circumcising themselves. It was usually done by a priest or medical person (oh and buy the way, I am sure they gave them wine or strong drink to knock them out so they could handle the pain) And Paul called that a work. Even though you did not actually do anything.

actually you did. You had to go to the place to be baptized In pauls day, this could have been walking miles and miles to get to a body of Water. So it is a work.

Both Baptize, and Circumcize REPRESENT cleansing. Which we are told occurs by the hand of God.

your replacing the work of God in our washing of regeneration with the work of men This is called blasphemy



Your right. Just not the baptism you are thinking of. The moment I place my faith in God, and he accepts my faith, I am immediately baptized by God himself, and through that baptism, I am washed and regenerated (titus 3: 5) Not many days/months or however long later one get immersed in water.




1. The great commission says to make disciples. THEN baptize them, they are already saved and washed when they are baptized.
2. Peter did not tell anyone to repent AND be baptized (that is a flaw in the english text) He told EVERYONE to repent, then told those who had RECIEVED remission of sin to be baptized.

Stop looking at your english bible, and listening to men. And seek out the truth.

Show me where the word THEN is in the bible relating to first believe and THEN be baptized. I believe you are wrong, but prove me wrong, if you can.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Show me where the word THEN is in the bible relating to first believe and THEN be baptized. I believe you are wrong, but prove me wrong, if you can.

It is in the greek my friend. I do not have to prove you wrong God already did.

"The three clauses are --
(1) 'Repent ye:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'Repent' -- verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of sins:'

“every one of you” – third person, singular number.

'be baptized' -- verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

“unto the remission of your sins” – modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:'

'ye' -- subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- direct object of verb.

if you look. repent was spoken in 2nd person plural (spoken to all) the gift of the spirit was the subject of the second person plural verb, ye being the plural subject (as found in the old english bibles,Ye is plural) in the updated versions, it says you, which can be plural or singular. [/quote]

in the second phrase, we have you as the singular third person subject, Baptism as the 3rd person singular verb, and remission of sin as the modifier which again is third person singular.

2nd person plural and third person singular phrases do not fit. they are separate things.