OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[dcontroversal]

Acts 7, did those "natural men" understand Stephen's gospel sermon that he preached to them? Yes they did, v54.

Take up your argument with Paul and God......and the Corinthian letter......!

 

[SeaBass]

Salvation by grace is not dependent upon the works that a man does or does not. Salvation by grace is dependent solely upon God.

There is not a single suggestion of a soul that was saved ever being lost. The man in 1 Corinthians 5 was in gross sin and yet he was not condemned Spiritually but physically. Given to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Flesh not spirit.

How is Templeton any different than Judas? I'm not God so I cannot judge another man's salvation. I can only measure his works or fruit. I know only my personal state before the Lord. There are many who have questioned Dr. Grahams faith given the extent to which he compromised with unbelievers in his ministry.

Show me from the bible someone who was saved by grace and lost it. Even in the OT when David sinned he was not condemned.

Spend so time considering just what it means to be saved by grace. Consider Gods grace and what it is in character and virtue. Ask God to reveal to you just a little of what His grace represents.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Naaman's healing was by grace, did reception of that grace depend upon his obedient work? Yes it did. And it is no different when it comes to salvation for God grace is conditionally received by obedient works and not unconditionally received by every single person/Universalism.


Salvation is not received conditionally and then kept unconditionally.

 

[valiant]

The doctrine of OSAS denies the faith by denying the words of God, which is denying Jesus Christ the very Word of God. Let me explain.

Actually, far from denying Christ OSAS is taking Him at His word. You PSBWK ers see salvation as man's work with a bit of help from God. You agree with the Roman Catholics. We who believe that once Christ has commenced His saving work in us He will not fail, are the ones who have true faith. Our faith is in Christ as the unfailing One..

It is written by Grace you are saved through faith, and also in Romans 5:2 “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. As it is also written, the children of faith are counted for the seed.

Yes, grace (God's unmerited favour and love) brings about our salvation. The channel He uses is faith. And as a consequence of that God inworked faith we have confidence that we are constantly surrounded by His gracious unfailing activity.

And we see in

Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

This is actually talking about a different aspect of faith. It is faith in GOD as the One Who is overall, and Who constantly acts on behalf of those who trust Him.

Just as it is written the just shall live by faith, and we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, which is also faith in the very Word of God. Just as Jesus said Matthew 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Just as we are to abide in Christ, and in His words by faith.

Yes, whom God chooses He causes to have responsive faith. Thus by responding to Him in faith they are accounted as righteous, they live by His word, and they abide in Him. And they know that He is able to keep them from falling and to present them faultless before Him.

And this is where the

lies of OSAS doctrine begins to be exposed for what it is, which is not of faith in what Gods words say are true.

OSAS have faith IN THE ONE WHO IS TRUE. They know that He will never fail them or forsake them. They trust HIM. Are His promises to do this not God's word?

Not many Christians will argue against salvation not being based on Grace through faith and belief in Jesus Christ.

You omitted, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of GOD (freely given, no payment required), and NOT OF OUR OWN DOINGS.

But some believe that faith is not connected or expressed in our own actions or any works on our part.

Personally I have never met a Christian who holds that view in 65 years as a Christian. ALL agree that faith is expressed in action. 'By their fruits you will know them. THIS IS A STRAW MAN.

And some even believe one cannot lose that salvation by faith no matter what, leaving the notion wide open that one can

sin without any consequence of losing salvation.

Your first clause is correct with one important ALTERATION. And the reason for the alteration is because it is not OUR salvation but HIS, Salvation is the work of the Saviour, not the work of the sinner. We are in no position to lose it. We have put our case in His hands and He has promised to bring about our salvation. How can it fail? As He Himself said. 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given Me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING but should raise them up at the Last Day'. (John 6.39).

You accuse us of leaving wide open the idea that 'one can sin without any consequence of losing salvation', and that is true (salvation is not ours to lose), but what we cannot do is sin without any consequences. If we sin we will experience the chastening hand of God. This will be the proof that we are His.

This is what Jude warned of in Jude 1:4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

No not quite. Jude was here talking about people who had misunderstood the message of salvation. They had no desire to be saved from sin. They wanted to be 'saved' in it. To them sin was not an enemy but a lover. They had never been saved. Indeed they did not WANT to be saved from sin. They will be rightly condemned.

But if you do not abide in the obedience of the faith, but in unbelief, then how can you please God? After all were not the branches of Israel broken off because of unbelief?

Of course. All true Christians produce the obedience that springs from faith, even if it is sometimes at a low ebb. They do want to please God, even though they sometimes find that, 'with the mind I serve the law of God but with the flesh the law of sin.'.
Sometimes they are especially weak and frail and need the Saviour to carry them. Some even wander away and have to be brought back. But that IS THE SHEPHERD'S JOB. He seeks them UNTIL He finds them (LUKE 15.4)

Your theology is slightly wrong. The branches of Israel that were broken off were those who obstinately remained in unbelief, not backsliders. They included most of the Sadducees, the Scribes and the Pharisees.
.

Romans 11:20-22 “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

A warning to those who had taken shelter in becoming Israelites by 'believing in the Messiah' that they must continue in His goodness. No one doubts that. True faith is permanent faith. Like our churches today the early churches also contained both genuine and nominal Christians. And the warning is to those who arrogantly assumed that because they had been baptised they were safe. If their faith proved not to be genuine they would go the way of the Jews whose faith had not been genuine.

That sure sounds like a

warning to abide in faith doesn’t it? For we stand by faith, but some say you cannot fall.

Well it is important to 'go on believing'. No one doubts that. But the OSASer believes that God will enable those who ARE His to go on believing. That is what salvation is all about. God 'working in us to will and do of His good pleasure'. (Phil 2.13). To put it another way, God dragging us back by the scruff of our necks.

Abiding in that faith means abiding in the faith of Jesus, but also abiding in His words by faith, meaning every God breathed word spoken by the Holy Spirit.

If our salvation depended on 'abiding in every God-breathed word' no one would be saved. It is beyond human capability. Our salvation depends on the fact that our shepherd will not allow us to break away and perish, and will not allow any to pluck us from His hand (John 10.27-28). He will keep us abiding using both hook and crook. And if we wander off He will drag us back.

But again, the

error of OSAS denies the words of God by saying you cannot fall from salvation, which is based on faith.

But saying that once Jesus Christ is my Saviour I cannot fall from His hands is confirming Scripture not denying it. How can anyone escape from His hands? How can someone who is anchored within the veil fall from salvation? Will God's anchor fail? You err, not knowing the Scriptures and the power of GOD.

But were you also go wrong is in claiming that salvation is BASED ON faith. IT IS NOT. It is based on the grace of God (His UNMERITED love and favour) and on the activity of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Faith is the channel through which we receive it.

But some will say, well if they fall they were never really saved in the first place. But go back to the definition of what saved means in scripture, which is by grace through faith.

If you mean permanently fall I will agree with you. If someone permanently falls it is evidence that the Saviour is not saving them. For He never fails.

Your problem again is that you embolden faith, I would embolden GRACE. Salvation is through the unmerited love and favour of God and of Jesus Christ acting on us and in us. It is through faith, not because of faith.

To be continued.

 

[dcontroversal]

Actually, in my many years of discussion on this issue, it is primarily the OSAS proponents who have brought forth the most hate towards those who do not believe as they do. Yes, there a few OSASer's who are nice that I ran into. But most I have talked with are actually very cruel in the way they treat you (When you discuss this topic).

You don't discuss anything.....you apply things not said or taught by people who believe eternal security, your reject verb tenses, definitions of the very inspired words and context to promote your own coined message......maybe if you actually discussed something and were honest with what is said while acknowledging the inspired words and verb tenses you would have a little easier way to go.

 

[SeaBass]

So what I gather from the saved by self crowd is this. God is a God of only the highly intelligent. There is no room in His kingdom for the simple, the beggars, the mentally ill, the suffering....those who have seemingly insurmountable addictions brought on by abuse and neglect. Your God is a heartless one, with no room for anyone but you....and you are as equally as selfish and heartless as your god. You can keep your god that doesn't keep his promises and I will cling to the grace and mercy that Jesus brings to those who simply give Him their heart and bring nothing more.

Straw man.

 

[JesusIsAll]

You prove my original point. You do not do this to “edify.” You do it to destroy faith. You do this to deny Christ. You are an agent of Satan. BE GONE!

This is something that seems little grasped around here. These things are, literally, Satanic. These people are compulsive, career liars, set in their false gospel claims, day after day, week after week, trying to poison the well. These are issues of false prophets and doctrines of demons, yet you have a crowd here that seems to be alright with it, even admonish some "make nice" stance with those advocating for Satan. Those who don't see evil perhaps neither really see truth.

 

[Jason0047]

Pop quiz....Why do you keep misrepresenting the truth and applying things not taught unto the people who believe in the security of the believer?

Pop quiz....Why do you deny your a sinner that sins' under the banner of messing up or slipping up?

Pop quiz....Why do you say you are without sin, but will also say that you are not perfect YET?

Pop quiz...Why do you deny you teach a works based salvation when your gospel relies upon what YOU do or do not do?

Pop quiz....Why do you reject the very definitions of the inspired words, contexts and verb tenses that contradict your view?

Pop quiz...Why do you talk out of both sides of your mouth?

Look, if you are going to insult me and make false accusations against me and desire not to discuss the verses I just brought up, then there really is no real discussion to have with you that would be considered kind, loving, and rational.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

No, actually it is you that is denying the words of God......context means everything and to whom the letter was written means everything.....why do you suppose it has the name Hebrews? Wake up man...serious.....wow!

Well, I'm not from Rome, or Corinth, or Galatia, or from Thessalonica either. LOL Good Lord what an excuse to ignore Gods words. Wow! LOL

Now, I know this one is addressed to Timothy, BUT it is also good for doctrine and reproof.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Straw man.

Naw. He pretty much nailed you. That's you in a nutshell.

And Jason.

And ISIT.

Three peas in a heretic pod.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is something that seems little grasped around here. These things are, literally, Satanic. These people are compulsive, career liars, set in their false gospel claims, day after day, week after week, trying to poison the well. These are issues of false prophets and doctrines of demons, yet you have a crowd here that seems to be alright with it, even admonish some "make nice" stance with those advocating for Satan. Those who don't see evil perhaps neither really see truth.

and a few that will openly boast about sitting on the fence instead of making a stand on the truth as well.....they are just as bad for sure....by refusal to make a stand they automatically are lumped in with those who are not correct...!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Look, if you are going to insult me and make false accusations against me and desire not to discuss the verses I just brought up, then there really is no real discussion to have with you that would be considered kind, loving, and rational.

That just proves what kind of spirit is really working in them.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Nobodies defending sin. We're defending the true gospel of christ against your hollow gospel of self importance.

Nobody has ever defended sin. It's the straw man, what they're really doing is trying to place a hook in people they're not good enough, sow doubt through the back door. It's a stupid farce of an argument, again, nobody ever saying this, a slander in itself of people who've said no such thing. Devil means slanderer, don't forget. Attack the messenger, in a big font of their playbook.

 

[Jason0047]

So what I gather from the saved by self crowd is this. God is a God of only the highly intelligent. There is no room in His kingdom for the simple, the beggars, the mentally ill, the suffering....those who have seemingly insurmountable addictions brought on by abuse and neglect. Your God is a heartless one, with no room for anyone but you....and you are as equally as selfish and heartless as your god. You can keep your god that doesn't keep his promises and I will cling to the grace and mercy that Jesus brings to those who simply give Him their heart and bring nothing more.

Also, no one is saying that the mentally ill, beggars, those who suffer are not capable of not inheriting the Kingdom of God and or they will not be saved. The mentally ill who are truly damaged on a mental capacity whereby they cannot determine right from wrong are automatically saved. The beggar or those who suffer are more receptive to the gospel than say a rich man and or a person who loves the world still. But you have to realize, that no believer saves themselves. God saves them both in Justification and in Sanctification. A believer merely yields to the work God wants to do within them. For the disciples had marveled at who could be saved after Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter the KIngdom of God. Jesus reply was that with God.... all things are possible. Meaning, it is God who is going to save a person. Not just as a one time thing or event in their life, but as a continual walk with that person.

 

[dcontroversal]

Look, if you are going to insult me and make false accusations against me and desire not to discuss the verses I just brought up, then there really is no real discussion to have with you that would be considered kind, loving, and rational.

Everything I asked you about is truth....if the boot fits wear it........Jason...now I will ask again...why not answer....it may take a while, but I am sure we can go back over numerous threads and cut and past things that prove the questions below....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal Pop quiz....Why do you keep misrepresenting the truth and applying things not taught unto the people who believe in the security of the believer?

Pop quiz....Why do you deny your a sinner that sins' under the banner of messing up or slipping up?

Pop quiz....Why do you say you are without sin, but will also say that you are not perfect YET?

Pop quiz...Why do you deny you teach a works based salvation when your gospel relies upon what YOU do or do not do?

Pop quiz....Why do you reject the very definitions of the inspired words, contexts and verb tenses that contradict your view?

Pop quiz...Why do you talk out of both sides of your mouth?

Here...I will post one that fits the last question to start......

Originally Posted by Jason0047 Well, not to drag you into it personally (Because I don't know your life), but for clarity on this point, a believer cannot abide in unrepentant sin and think they are saved. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not a one time event but a continued relationship and walk with the Lord.

However, that said, Samson and Solomon were saved and they lived out very sinful lives. But these are examples of God's grace and mercy of how one can be saved by the skin of their teeth. QUOTE]

 

[JesusIsAll]

Naw. He pretty much nailed you. That's you in a nutshell.

And Jason.

And ISIT.

Three peas in a heretic pod.

Where the rubber meets the road, some old dogs just don't hunt.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

But you have to realize, that no believer saves themselves. God saves them both in Justification and in Sanctification.

It's nothing short of stupifying that you don't realize you just negated every argument you've ever made against eternal security.

If "no believer saves themselves" then explain how they then have power to keep themselves saved! Not only is that a huge contradiction, it is simply ignorant of biblical truth.

 

[SeaBass]

You lie yet again. It has been proven time and again that eternal security is the teaching of Jesus, who brings us, as believers, into an eternal relationship that guarantees our eternal security. The simple fact is this happens instantly, when people come to know Christ as their Savior.

Jude 24, NASB
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.​

It is up to God, it is in His power that the believer is prevented from falling. He presents us, we do not present ourselves, before the throne of grace in that last day, before His glorious presence. We do not maintain our salvation. That is possible only through the power of Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed:

John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.​

Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son? And before you say “Anyone can remove themselves,” that’s another damnable lie. If “no one” can snatch us away, how do we snatch ourselves away? "No one" means us, too. Otherwise, where is the exception to Jesus’ words In that passage? Where does He say, "Oh, but you can snatch yourself out"? He doesn't. To deny eternal security, you must twist, lie, deny, obfuscate and still can’t make that passage deny eternal security. It proves it.

Ephesians 1:13, 14 tells us that the Holy Spirit is our seal, a down payment, toward our future redemption. Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit. If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be for the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. And while you may believe that is the case, John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Your continuing false gospel of “lost salvation” is denied by the very words of Christ. You do not know Him. If you did, you would repent in sorrow, dust, and ashes for dishonoring His word by lying about it and misrepresenting it. And you will not address any of the salient points in this post, because you cannot overcome their truth, which is not from me but from Christ Himself.

You prove my original point. You do not do this to “edify.” You do it to destroy faith. You do this to deny Christ. You are an agent of Satan. BE GONE!

I pointed out your wresting of scriptures...and you continue to do so....


Jude 24 it is not "up to God", the verse does not say it is God's accountability and responsibility to keep the Christian from falling. Quit trying to take YOUR accountability and responsibility and put it upon God.


Jn 10:27,28 one hears and follows of his volition and therefore can quit hearing and following of his own volition. It is not God's accountability and responsibility that one hears and follows or that ones keeps on hearing and following. No context says God has a unconditional obligation to save those that quit hearing and following. Those faithful to God , God will be faithful to them and OSAS has nothing to do with it at all and is not even in the context, therefore you are wanting v27 out of the context to force OSAS into the context.


The church as Ephesus was sealed, but that seal was eventually broken down the road, Revelation 2:1-7.

Again, Rom 8:38,39 says nothing about OSAS you again are forcing it into the context. Paul lists things EXTERNAL to the Christian not the Christian himself who can remove himself from the love of God. You make passages as Jude 21 pointless and baseless by wresting of Rom 8:38,39.

 

[dcontroversal]

That just proves what kind of spirit is really working in them.

Yeah keep believing that....got read post 134.....my questions are valid......and like I said above...maybe you should take your own advice as I have seen you get just as mouthy when you have been called out before......!

 

[Sirk]

Also, no one is saying that the mentally ill, beggars, those who suffer are not capable of not inheriting the Kingdom of God and or they will not be saved. The mentally ill who are truly damaged on a mental capacity whereby they cannot determine right from wrong are automatically saved. The beggar or those who suffer are more receptive to the gospel than say a rich man and or a person who loves the world still. But you have to realize, that no believer saves themselves. God saves them both in Justification and in Sanctification. A believer merely yields to the work God wants to do within them. For the disciples had marveled at who could be saved after Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter the KIngdom of God. Jesus reply was that with God.... all things are possible. Meaning, it is God who is going to save a person. Not just as a one time thing or event in their life, but as a continual walk with that person.

Careful...you're contradicting yourself. Gotta admire your "on the fly theology" tho. Lol

 

[dcontroversal]

It's nothing short of stupifying that you don't realize you just negated every argument you've ever made against eternal security.

If "no believer saves themselves" then explain how they then have power to keep themselves saved! Not only is that a huge contradiction, it is simply ignorant of biblical truth.

Don't worry...I quoted verbatim the meaning of justification from the Greek one time and he rejected it while not realizing that being rendered innocent by faith before God based upon grace and mercy is what faith into Jesus actually brings......which then sanctifies us POSITIONALLY and ETERNALLY.......really mind blowing contradictions that come from these guys.....