OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[dcontroversal]

Are you one of those guys who claims that you are sinless since salvation?

Don't worry as there are a handful who believe that...heck...even went years without one sin.....

 

[Skinski7]

Perfect excuse for sinning? It is the perfect excuse because it is premised on the notion that the sin can never cease. If one cannot cease from willful sin then one does not have to cease from willful sin. The Bible commands that we forsake wickedness but if you believe that such a forsaking is impossible then you won't do it will you?

Who are you going to give this excuse to? You don't see anyone giving an excuse in the bible. But you don't see them denying it either.

Why does the Lord Jesus say that the sinner is justified rather than the pharisee after their prayers? Lord have mercy on me a sinner?

Let us look at what Jesus said...

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. The Pharisee is a proud religious man who fasts, gives tithes etc. He is very proud of his deeds.

The publican has humbled himself before God and is seeking mercy.

Is Jesus teaching Original Sin? Is Jesus teaching that the sin never stops?

No!

Jesus is teaching this...

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Yet you are taking that parable of Jesus and using it in a post defending Original Sin. Who is being dishonest here?

The Bible says...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

What do you do with such a teaching? Ignore it? Will you answer this question?

"Sin you will and sin you must" is the very opposite of Pro 28:13. It is the very opposite of this too...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

So back to the parable of the publican and the Pharisee. How about this statement...

"this man went down to his house justified." Notice he left the temple after having been cleansed of his sin. Do you think he was to continue to rebel against God and keep coming back to the temple over and over? Surely you must think that. If that is the case then why would have have to do it over and over unless he was losing justification each time?

You see, your entire framework is erroneous. Jesus is simply teaching in that parable that we don't approach God seeking mercy heralding religious works as if we deserve something. No. We are to come clean with God, weep and mourn, be broken hearted, and THEN God raises us up to newness of life whereby we go and sin no more, walking via a faith that works by love. Does that sound heretical to you?

Its not because we are trying to excuse it. Its because we are being honest. What willful sin can you not stop?

I was born this way. Thus you deny you are responsible for your sinning because your birth is to blame.

But I was re-born a different way. Well if you are reborn a different way then why are you constantly in the temple crying out for mercy for ongoing rebellion to God? What kind of new birth leaves you wretched and in bondage to sin?

These two natures fight inside me.

Therefore, my prayer will always be like the publican, the sinner. I will always ask the Lord for His Mercy. I will never tell the Lord I made it and I'm glad I'm not like all those other poor sinners. Have I ever claimed that we ought to tell God that "I made it and I'm glad I'm not like all those other poor sinners"? Well have I?

No. We have a race to run and it is he who endures to the end who will receive eternal life. We are not to be presumptuous like we have it already. Those who promote OSAS are very presumptuous that it is all already a done deal for them, they are just along for the ride.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You misrepresent me as the Pharisee simply because I teach that the willful sin has to stop in repentance and that the new birth is inclusive of a pure heart whereby we love God wholeheartedly and love our neighbour fervently. The Pharisee wasn't walking by a faith that works by love in the Spirit of Jesus Christ having been broken in a bitter repentance where he sought the mercy of God. It is a shame that you misrepresent me as such, but then again I think I can understand why. It makes it easier to write my words off.

Its just honest. Were you born a sinner? Yes, yes you were. No I wasn't. I was born ignorant and subject to the natural passions of my flesh. As my intellect developed and I became aware of right and wrong through the light of conscience I CHOSE to sin and thus died to God. I was fully responsible for my action and thus the result was of my own doing. I don't blame my birth for rebelling against God, I blame me. I may not have understood the full consequences of what I was doing, nor did I have a full knowledge of righteousness, but I did know right from wrong.

You were also born ignorant and subject to the natural passions of your flesh. You were not forced to rebel against God via some birth defect, you chose to do so and thus are accountable for that choice. The claim that "blaming birth" somehow humbles you is erroneous, it just makes you feel like a victim instead of a criminal.

Did you use it as an excuse when you came to Christ? I didn't. I don't think many do, at least not blatantly. Things are much more subtle. What Original Sin does is promote the "victim mindset" of merely being "ill" whereby the remedy is viewed as "taking medicine." Thus the sinner does not truly come clean with God in a bitter repentance where the iniquity is purged from the heart once and for all. Instead they "receive Jesus" in their belief in the false legal exchange provision taught in Penal Substitution.
It didn't occur to me to try and excuse anything. I just asked to be changed. If it was His Will I would have been perfected right then. Can you testify of an experience where ALL THING have been made new? Are you a NEW CREATION in Christ? If so then why uphold "sin you will and sin you must"? Is not Jesus more powerful than the sin in your life?

Apparently His Grace is sufficient for me, just as it was for Paul.

Thank you for reading my response.

 

[Skinski7]

You want a rundown of my sins? Confession is to God, not man. Define willful.

No I don't want a run down. I was making a point in regards to the notion of "sin you will and sin you must."

I have made careful allusion to the fact that it is willful sin or sinning knowingly that has to cease in order to be pardoned of our past rebellion by God. I have done this is very many posts and articles I have written and it is something I am very careful to explain when I speak to people in person.

Yet even though I make this distinction people are generally opposed to the idea that willful sin has to stop once and for all. Thus if you are of the view that you can be justified whilst you are still in rebellion to God due to holding the position that you cannot stop rebelling, I was asking which acts of rebellion can you not stop?


Willful simple means knowingly.

A willful sin is this...

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

That is what has to cease. It is rebellion which must stop once and for all. There is no justification whilst one remains in rebellion to God. We have to die in order to live.

 

[sparkman]

Another thing concerning sinless people is that they are quite often in disobedience to God's command to be involved in a local fellowship of believers. Are you in a church fellowship where you are held accountable and subject to church discipline?

If not, you're in disobedience.

Hebrews 10:25King James Version (KJV)[SUP]25 [/SUP]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Willful sin, no. God forbid I would do that.

Instead of addressing the specific issues I raise people like you often try to malign the character of others.

Let me ask you a question now.

What willful sin can you not cease from?

 

[Skinski7]

Yes....why is it that "sinless" people always accuse others of liking their sin? It's like they do not understand that those who believe in eternal security are making no excuse for their sins. In fact, they are the ones who can be transparent about their sinfulness, instead of lying or deceiving themselves into thinking they have no sin. They are able to confess their sin and receive cleansing. You can't confess what you deny you have.

1 John 1:8-9King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Joh 1:8 is addressing coming clean with God. John is not alluding to an ongoing state of wickedness which never stops.

John wrote this...

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


If 1Joh 1:8-9 is teaching that "sin is always present in me" then it is a denial of the "our sins being taken away" (1Joh 3:5).

John wrote...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin if we walk in the light as He is in the light. We are washed clean, not washed and left dirty as you proclaim. Look at this passage...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We are to draw near God via the blood of Jesus with a TRUE HEART in full assurance having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. This cleansing does not leave in a defiled state.

To use 1Joh 1:8-9 as a proof text of ongoing wickedness with the necessary ongoing cleansing is a denial of the Gospel. It is asserting that the blood does not really clean you but leaves you in a defiled state where you keep sinning. Think about that. That is what you believe.

People like you profess to be a Christian and yet argue in favour of being inwardly filthy. You think such an admission is a manifestation of humbleness. Have you no consciousness of the scale of delusion you must be under to proclaim such things?

Look at what Peter wrote to some babes in Christ....

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Do you ever testify that your soul has been purified through obedience to the truth whereby you can love one another fervently with a pure heart for you are born again of the incorruptible seed? I bet you NEVER testify of such a thing.

Instead you testify an ongoing defiled state of sin.

Would you care to explain that discrepancy between what you appear to believe and the testimony of scripture?


1 John 1:8-9 is about this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

We don't come to God seeking mercy and hide our sin. We come clean about our rebellion, what we have done, and it is in a broken state we seek the mercy of God. That is what John is asserting.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If we claim to have never sinned then we make him a liar and his word is not in us. Verse 8 is about sin to our account, not ongoing wickedness.

Please don't be deceived. Be diligent.

Remember the religious system in the days of Isaiah, Jeremiah and even Jesus was totally deceived and corrupted. The whole thing was a farce.

Why would we expect it to be any different today?

 

[Skinski7]

Another thing concerning sinless people is that they are quite often in disobedience to God's command to be involved in a local fellowship of believers. Are you in a church fellowship where you are held accountable and subject to church discipline?

If not, you're in disobedience.

Hebrews 10:25King James Version (KJV)[SUP]25 [/SUP]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Are you not trying hard to find something to malign me with? Why not instead have a discussion about what the Bible actually teaches. Let's be honest and look at what it is saying plainly.

I do meet with some local believers but it is a small gathering and we meet in homes.

 

[Skinski7]

Ok-- I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but eventhough I seem to cringe as I do read through these posts, I feel compelled to come into this chat forum and say my peace---

--- I just want to say that I believe that Jesus died Once and For All to save me from ALL my unrighteousness; and I will say that it doesn't seem FAIR-- just like it doesn't seem fair that someone in their old age could come to Jesus on their deathbed where other's follow him their whole lives and get rewarded--- But God doesn't follow my agreement of what is FAIR-- He is always perfectly just. And because it isn't at all FAIR, that's where Grace comes in. And covers ALL my sin.

I might also suggest before anyone jump on this to consider how things might change in this debate if we consider that God is Eternal and that a moment is the same as 1000 years to Him-- if you consider that then time as we see and experience it is NOT the same to Our Heavenly Father-- Jesus said in the NT to Fear Not, for He Has Overcome the World-- ALREADY-- not that he is in the process of Overcoming it, or that Soon He would die and Rise again and overcome it--

-- anyway, I believe that if He didn't save me once and for all, then if I ask for forgiveness on Sunday AM and have an impure thought on Sunday evening then His Grace would not continue to cover me. It is the human experience that makes us a judge in this, because we make it Our place to judge sins-- how many-- when-- how extreme they are, "whether the sin is willfull or not" when it is definitely not our place.

A lot of people are confused in regards to temptation and sin. A "bad thought" is not necessarily sin. Sin is only when we entertain such a thought and run with it, not if we put it to death.

I know people who have been addicted to pornography and have subsequently experience a genuine salvation. Whilst they would no longer indulge their previous lusts they would still have vivid memories which would surface and would also wake up with dreams. Upon this occurring they would immediately put such thoughts to death and the same has happened to me. We have discussed these things in depth as it is an interesting subject.

Sinning leaves an imprint in our minds. We remember vileness and when we are first born again those imprints are still fresh. It is over time that such imprints are slowly degraded whereby our temptations lessen.

Our nature is our disposition. Yielding to sin develops a disposition to keep sinning, hence a sin nature develops. Yielding to righteousness develops a disposition to righteousness. Thus our natures can go either way.

What is amazing is that God quickens our mortal bodies in which we find the strength to endure the temptation wrought via the hardwired damage we induced on ourselves through sinning for a long time. This is why we have to have faith and constantly dwell on the word day and night, it makes it much easy to bring every thought into submission to Christ.

I believe this is the striving Jesus spoke of. It takes effort, but it is not a task we endure alone. We are quickened by the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Skinski7]

There is a lot of, "look at that guy, he is one of those," followed by "yeah I know, they are like this."

Instead of dealing with the substance of much of what is written people tend to resort to dismissive remarks and pats on the back to those they agree with.

Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



Verses like the following are poison to the deceivers.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I have yet to see a single person on Christian Chat ever discuss 1Pet 1:22-23 where the new birth is connected to manifest heart purity whereby we love one another.

Maybe someone has but do not recall ever seeing it. I have pointed that verse out hundreds of times and I don't believe I have ever seen anyone directly address it. As I said, it is poison to the notion of "sin you will and sin you must."

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[flob]

Once you're born of God, you're always born of God. Birth cannot and will not be undone.
The ones who teach that a child of God can unbecome His child, or that those born of God
can or may spend eternity in the lake of fire, neither know God, nor His Scriptures.
Rm 8:16; 1 Cor 6:17; Jn 3:6; 5:24; 10:28-29.

 

[Grandpa]

Therefore, my prayer will always be like the publican, the sinner. I will always ask the Lord for His Mercy. I will never tell the Lord I made it and I'm glad I'm not like all those other poor sinners. Have I ever claimed that we ought to tell God that "I made it and I'm glad I'm not like all those other poor sinners"? Well have I?

No. We have a race to run and it is he who endures to the end who will receive eternal life. We are not to be presumptuous like we have it already. Those who promote OSAS are very presumptuous that it is all already a done deal for them, they are just along for the ride.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You misrepresent me as the Pharisee simply because I teach that the willful sin has to stop in repentance and that the new birth is inclusive of a pure heart whereby we love God wholeheartedly and love our neighbour fervently. The Pharisee wasn't walking by a faith that works by love in the Spirit of Jesus Christ having been broken in a bitter repentance where he sought the mercy of God. It is a shame that you misrepresent me as such, but then again I think I can understand why. It makes it easier to write my words off..

A little touchy on being called a Pharisee, aren't you?

But I guess its obvious, isn't it?

Just for the record, I didn't call you a Pharisee, yet...

I proclaim OSAS because I believe in the Power and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not in any ability I may have to cause my own salvation or keep my own self saved. So if its presumptous, it is presuming the Power of the Cross and the Goodness of My God, His mercy and forgiveness. Its called Faith...

 

[Skinski7]

A little touchy on being called a Pharisee, aren't you?

But I guess its obvious, isn't it? Being touchy has nothing to do it with. I have been called a Pharisee a thousand times on these forums and it does not bother me a bit.

The issues with the Pharisees was that they outwardly were religious whilst they remained inwardly wicked. This is why Jesus told them to cleanse first that which is within that the outside be clean also.

Yet that is not what you advocate is it?

Your doctrine is void of anything remotely close to being cleansed inwardly and that is why you defend ongoing sinfulness.

Jesus came to save us from sin yet you believe in a salvation in which you are still in bondage to sin.

Have you ever considered how absurd it is to believe that a salvation wrought by an all powerful God leaves one in a wretched state and still wicked?

People proclaim that they "trust in Jesus" yet they do not believe Jesus can literally save them from sin. Utterly absurd.

Just for the record, I didn't call you a Pharisee, yet...

I proclaim OSAS because I believe in the Power and Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet you don't believe in the power and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to actually set you free from sin. What is the power of God good for then? TO give you a cloak where God pretends you are clean when you are still manifestly filthy? What a weak and puny god you believe in.

Not in any ability I may have to cause my own salvation or keep my own self saved. Salvation is wrought through hearing and doing. God leads the way and we follow. Jesus Himself taught that the wise man is the one who hears and then DOES. You don't believe in the Jesus that said that?

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. So if its presumptous, it is presuming the Power of the Cross and the Goodness of My God, His mercy and forgiveness. Its called Faith... The faith that God reckons as righteousness has an associated walk and it upholds the righteousness of the law. The faith that God reckons as righteousness works by love and works no ill.

OSAS teaches that one can engage in willful sin and remain justified. Thus clearly the faith of OSAS is not a faith that works by love because love will NEVER produce ill.[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]

What do you do with 1Pet 1:22-23? Is it blacked out in your Bible?

Do you have a testimony of having your soul purified through obedience to the truth? Do you love others with a pure heart fervently? Are you born again of the incorruptible seed?

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Would you care to address that?

 

[Skinski7]

Once you're born of God, you're always born of God. Birth cannot and will not be undone.
The ones who teach that a child of God can unbecome His child, or that those born of God
can or may spend eternity in the lake of fire, neither know God, nor His Scriptures.
Rm 8:16; 1 Cor 6:17; Jn 3:6; 5:24; 10:28-29.

Wasn't Adam born of God?

Luk_3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Do you believe you can be "born of God" and "serve the devil"?

The Bible says...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are manifest to the world in that they DO righteousness.

Do you believe in children of God who DO unrighteousness?

 

[Skinski7]

Once you're born of God, you're always born of God. Birth cannot and will not be undone.
The ones who teach that a child of God can unbecome His child, or that those born of God
can or may spend eternity in the lake of fire, neither know God, nor His Scriptures.
Rm 8:16; 1 Cor 6:17; Jn 3:6; 5:24; 10:28-29.

Have you ever read this passage...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Is engaging in sin overcoming to you? is that what you believe?

 

[SarahM777]

What do you do with 1Pet 1:22-23? Is it blacked out in your Bible?

Do you have a testimony of having your soul purified through obedience to the truth? Do you love others with a pure heart fervently? Are you born again of the incorruptible seed?

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Would you care to address that?

Would you care to address the passage WITHIN THE CONTEXT of the passage?

Premise Cause

1 Peter 1

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. [SUP]6 [/SUP]In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. [SUP]7[/SUP]These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, [SUP]9 [/SUP]for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, [SUP]11 [/SUP]trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. [SUP]12 [/SUP]It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

EFFECT of cause

1 Peter 1

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.[SUP]14 [/SUP]As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; [SUP]16 [/SUP]for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, [SUP]19 [/SUP]but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. [SUP]20 [/SUP]He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.



[SUP]22 [/SUP]Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]23 [/SUP]For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[SUP][c][/SUP]


And this is the word that was preached to you.


Outcome of effect

2 Peter 2

2 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, [SUP]3 [/SUP]now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— [SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[SUP][a][/SUP] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”[SUP][b][/SUP]


[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[SUP][c][/SUP]


[SUP]8 [/SUP]and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[SUP][d][/SUP]


They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


You ALWAYS leave out verses 3-21 in which Peter sets up VERSES 22-23 and finishes in chapter 2 verse 9.

 

[flob]

It's Satanic to label forgiveness "pretense."
Rather, forgiveness, justification, is true.
As far as this dear person seemingly claiming that
he is without sin, or that believers into Christ are without sin,
we know that's a lie, 1 Jn 1:8.
It is growth, following rebirth, that crucifies our flesh
with its passion and lust. Yes, believers are accountable
to grow, to be purified. Mt 25:1-13; 2 Cor 5:10; 1 Jn 2:28;
2 Pet 1:3-11; etc

 

[kennethcadwell]

And I strongly disagree with you. I believe otherwise by the Spirit and God's Word. And there is no pride in such an issue. It is a pure logical deduction of the Scriptures. But I think it is best to agree to disagree. We have already discussed it with Scripture and I do not think we are going to change each other's minds.

I am not trying to change your mind, for the truth in God's word should guide you correctly by the Holy Spirit's guidance.
The word of God says those who practice/continue to do those things/sins without repenting of them. Nowhere does it say certain sins besides the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.
Lord Jesus says that is the only unforgivable sin, so to continue to place other sins as unforgivable is against what the Lord Jesus said and taught.

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


It is only those who continue to do the same sins over and over again, and/or also do not repent of them that will not be forgiven.
Moses murdered a man, David had a man murdered, and Paul stood by while allowing Stephen to be stoned to death. We will see all three of them in heaven when we get there, so to go and place certain sins as unforgivable that the bible does not is being over righteous or self righteous and does not come from the Holy Spirit............

 

[Jason0047]

I wouldn't fit into any of those categories.

A person who is saved is eternally secure, but along with that comes a regenerated nature that wants to obey God. Obedience is never perfect, though, and believers can stumble and fall back into sin. They can even backslide for a long time.

Are they saved if they die in a backslidden state?

By the way, what do you think of Charles Finney and his theology?

Who?

Don't really strive to follow one particular person or group denomination. I study God's Word in prayer and compare Scripture with Scripture and talk with other believers online and in person.

I'd like to know if you are being influenced by it. If you could reply directly to that question, I would appreciate it.

Not influenced by him. Don't know who he is?

 

[Grandpa]

What do you do with 1Pet 1:22-23? Is it blacked out in your Bible?

Do you have a testimony of having your soul purified through obedience to the truth? Do you love others with a pure heart fervently? Are you born again of the incorruptible seed?

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Would you care to address that?

I wouldn't ever be so presumptuous as to say that I purified my own soul by my obedience. Because, if that was the case, I'm afraid it wouldn't be all that purified. I probably would have missed some spots...

I would say that the Lord Jesus purified my soul because He drew me to the Truth.

I don't black out anything in the bible. I just like to reconcile certain passages with certain other passages.

I have a testimony of coming to Christ and Him saving me even though I wasn't perfectly sinless. Even though I wasn't walking perfectly in the Spirit. Even though I was ignorant and as a brute beast before Him.

I have a testimony that says I've seen the Gap and its much too large for you to get across by your work. Any of your work. Your "obedience", your "spirit-walk", your purifying of your own soul, it all takes much more than you can manage. The best you will ever be able to do is to trust the Lord Jesus Christ to get the work done on your behalf.

Have you trusted Him yet to get the work done on your behalf? Or do you still think you must do it yourself?

 

[Grandpa]

OSAS teaches that one can engage in willful sin and remain justified.

That's what you teach.

OSAS teaches that its the Lord Jesus who saves us and the Lord Jesus who keeps us saved.

OSAS teaches that salvation is a gift of God and as such will never be rescinded. Hence, once saved always saved...

 

[kennethcadwell]

That's what you teach.

OSAS teaches that its the Lord Jesus who saves us and the Lord Jesus who keeps us saved.

OSAS teaches that salvation is a gift of God and as such will never be rescinded. Hence, once saved always saved...

Yes that is what OSAS teaches which unfortunately is where it is left off unless you happen to be in a good church that teaches the rest of the equation. And that is how the bible shows that salvation through Christ is relies on the fact of continuance of obedience in the faith.
Those who do not continue to obey the gospel of Christ, and those who fall away from the faith are not still in a saved state as the bible clearly says and shows. For it says by the words of Jesus (Matthew 24:10), Holy Spirit, and Paul (1 Timothy 4:1) that many will fall away from the faith and not have eternal life, and the Apostle James says in James 5:19-20 that only if that person who has fallen away is brought back to the Lord will their soul be saved.